Creative+Difficult Entries/Exits 2017-18 | Golden Skate

Creative+Difficult Entries/Exits 2017-18

Sam-Skwantch

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
Here is a place to discuss this season's creative and difficult entries. As we start to see the new programs unveiled take note of those entrances and post them here.

Here is one I spotted Anastasiia Gubanova doing into a 3lz(Rippon)
https://youtu.be/WJPHul7ukGo?t=2m8s

It looks like a Walley then another Walley with a change of foot into the 3lz? I really like Walley's into jumps :love:

Who else has been spotting difficult entrances this season? Please share and discuss.
 
SkaterX

SkaterX

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 5, 2016
cl2 said:
That is not a back edge pull nor BI 3-turn. It's a counter. And yes, counter into 2A is hard. Counter into anything is hard. ;)

IIRC Hanyu has done a counter into 3A before.
Click to expand...

Haha, oops. I wasn't entirely sure what it was called so that was the closest thing I could figure out.
 
C

cl2

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
SkaterX said:
Haha, oops. I wasn't entirely sure what it was called so that was the closest thing I could figure out.
Click to expand...

It's easy to mistake a counter, and it's also easy to misskate a counter by switching over from the outside to the inside edge before the turn (in which case, then it does become a 3-turn, so you weren't very far off!). Zagitova's looks like a clean outside edge to outside edge, so not a mistake nor misskate. Counters make for very impressive entries, IMO.
 
G

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I love this stuff!

Very impressive example, russianfan -- love the way she regains speed through turns on one foot between the jump and the spin.

A few more axel entries from the past few weeks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MVeq45feNc&t=2m09s
Brendan Kerry, inside spread eagle, edge change and weight transfer to 3A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHDo8rbMlK0&t=3m03s
Mariah Bell, forward inside counter, edge change, step forward to 2A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5toOh8adAU&t=0m36s
Natalia Paulin, bracket-three-bracket, step forward to 2A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDZQ2fyY6HQ&t=2m33s
Wakaba Higuchi, choctaw, edge change, back inside three into 2A+2T+2Lo



Some fun spin entries:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hY5l6exQYw&t=2m32s
Timothy Dolensky, lunge into CCSp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHDo8rbMlK0&t=3m05s
Liam Firus, split jump to lunge into CSSp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5toOh8adAU&t=2m46s
Katie Pasfield, outside-inside spread eagle to stars to LSp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRYqyWiJLQk&t=1m14s
Matyas Belohradsky, forward inside-back inside rockers to back knee slide, step forward to FSSp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hY5l6exQYw&t=1m02s
James Min, FI counter, edge pull, BO and FO rockers, BO counter into CCSp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDZQ2fyY6HQ&t=3m14s
Ivan Righini, hoppy stompy steps to twizzle, step to CCoSp
 
Sam-Skwantch

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
What a great post gkelly! I can't wait until I get enough time to sit and take a look at these. You've got a great eye for this stuff so I hope you continue to post and share as the season rolls along.

:thank:
 
C

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
cl2 said:
It's easy to mistake a counter, and it's also easy to misskate a counter by switching over from the outside to the inside edge before the turn (in which case, then it does become a 3-turn, so you weren't very far off!). Zagitova's looks like a clean outside edge to outside edge, so not a mistake nor misskate. Counters make for very impressive entries, IMO.
Click to expand...

Technically counters are like that, if you look at the tracing on the ice, the skater does a change of edge before executing the turn. Another way to look at it is counters have the entry of a bracket but the exit of a 3-turn. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter_turn Look at the diagram and you'll see the slight change of edge right before the "point" of the turn.

Medvedeva also does a RFO-RBO counter into her 3L.

It's just that the LBO-LFO counter is most prominent due to skaters like Midori Ito, Yuzuru Hanyu, and now Zagitova trying them into their axels.

I've also seen skaters do LFO-LBO counters into their lutz but that's rare and really hard to control.

Still have yet to see a RFO-RBO counter into a toe loop or a LFI-LBI counter into a salchow/flip (which would be pretty awkward, though not impossible).
 
C

cl2

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Technically counters are like that, if you look at the tracing on the ice, the skater does a change of edge before executing the turn. Another way to look at it is counters have the entry of a bracket but the exit of a 3-turn. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter_turn Look at the diagram and you'll see the slight change of edge right before the "point" of the turn.
Click to expand...

I don't know what you mean by the diagram showing a change of edge. It shows clear entry and exit edges. If you really do a change of edge, it'll become a 3-turn with this tracing: https://youtu.be/FQmQQhjOfpY?t=5m41s

Medvedeva also does a RFO-RBO counter into her 3L.

It's just that the LBO-LFO counter is most prominent due to skaters like Midori Ito, Yuzuru Hanyu, and now Zagitova trying them into their axels.

I've also seen skaters do LFO-LBO counters into their lutz but that's rare and really hard to control.

Still have yet to see a RFO-RBO counter into a toe loop or a LFI-LBI counter into a salchow/flip (which would be pretty awkward, though not impossible).
Click to expand...

I don't recall seeing LFI counter into salchow or flip, but from the shoulder placement on the exit edge, it is quite possible. (Tells myself to go try that next time.) I would also tend to believe that RFO counter into toe-loop is awkward, because there's no natural mechanism to swing/reach the picking foot back after the turn exit.
 
G

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Well, I can do that into a single salchow. Obviously everything is more difficult with triples. And she does it much more elegantly than I do. :)
 
Blades of Passion

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
cl2 said:
It's easy to mistake a counter, and it's also easy to misskate a counter by switching over from the outside to the inside edge before the turn (in which case, then it does become a 3-turn, so you weren't very far off!). Zagitova's looks like a clean outside edge to outside edge, so not a mistake nor misskate. Counters make for very impressive entries, IMO.
Click to expand...

I don't think a counter vs 3-turn entry here is really much more difficult anyway. Back inside to forward outside is the hardest 3-turn and either way the skater is going to need to maintain good balance and transfer of momentum to jump the axel directly from the turn. Both are more difficult than stepping from one foot to the other into the axel. Turning 3's into an axel would be quite something.

I feel like counter turn into axel has actually become rather ubiquitous and is overrated as a "difficult" entry for the jump. You get the pendulum effect with that turn into the jump. Doing a rocker or bracket into an axel would be much more difficult, as those turns don't lend themselves to the momentum of the jump; your body would be turning in the opposite direction of the jump rotation.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
If you look at the tracing on the ice, the skater does a change of edge before executing the turn. Another way to look at it is counters have the entry of a bracket but the exit of a 3-turn. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter_turn Look at the diagram and you'll see the slight change of edge right before the "point" of the turn.

Medvedeva also does a RFO-RBO counter into her 3L.
Click to expand...

There is no edge change (inside/outside) in a counter. A skater may go onto a more shallow edge as they do the turn, but it shouldn't outright switch over. Medvedeva does not to a counter into her Loop. Whyyyy do you keep trying to repeat this wrong idea?
 
C

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
cl2 said:
I don't know what you mean by the diagram showing a change of edge. It shows clear entry and exit edges. If you really do a change of edge, it'll become a 3-turn with this tracing: https://youtu.be/FQmQQhjOfpY?t=5m41s



I don't recall seeing LFI counter into salchow or flip, but from the shoulder placement on the exit edge, it is quite possible. (Tells myself to go try that next time.) I would also tend to believe that RFO counter into toe-loop is awkward, because there's no natural mechanism to swing/reach the picking foot back after the turn exit.
Click to expand...

In that diagram, picture the skater going on a LFO edge along the entry circle on the left and a LBO along the exit circle on the right.

Right before the moment where the turn (ie the sharp point), the blade has to do a slight change of edge to a LFI in order to execute the counter turn. If there were no change of edge and the blade went straight from LFO to LBO, you wouldn't see a "point" being created on the ice. It would just look like an S, without a point in the middle of it. Hence why they say it has the "exit of a 3 turn". Now sometimes a skater will prolong this change of edge instead of executing the turn as quickly as possible, making it look more like a change of edge-3 turn, which isn't ideal counter technique (as the link you posted indicates). It is really hard to do a perfect counter but even a perfect counter will have somewhat of an edge change prior to the turn.

I also love that salchow entry of Honda's. When I first saw it I had to hit rewind because it just came out of nowhere and was such a unique entry!
 
Blades of Passion

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
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Country
France
There is no edge change, seriously where did you get this idea? The blade rolling up onto the flat as the turn happens is not an "edge change" and the mark created on the ice is not because of an inside/outside edge change, it's just from the turn itself. The video posted by cl2 is a valid one, watch all of those turns in slow motion and tell me where they ever change edge (they don't). In comparison, Medvedeva does a definite edge change before she turns, making it a 3-turn.
 
C

charlotte14

Medalist
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Technically counters are like that, if you look at the tracing on the ice, the skater does a change of edge before executing the turn. Another way to look at it is counters have the entry of a bracket but the exit of a 3-turn. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter_turn Look at the diagram and you'll see the slight change of edge right before the "point" of the turn.

Medvedeva also does a RFO-RBO counter into her 3L.

It's just that the LBO-LFO counter is most prominent due to skaters like Midori Ito, Yuzuru Hanyu, and now Zagitova trying them into their axels.

I've also seen skaters do LFO-LBO counters into their lutz but that's rare and really hard to control.

Still have yet to see a RFO-RBO counter into a toe loop or a LFI-LBI counter into a salchow/flip (which would be pretty awkward, though not impossible).
Click to expand...
You still haven't given up? All Med did was A counter - change of edge - 3 turn - 3Loop.

It is NOT a counter directly into 3Loop.
 
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