Under Rotations - Ladies

fredtx121 · Sep 20, 2017

Right now many ladies skaters have been downgraded with under rotations especially on the second jump combination. With the "new" scoring system, these jumps are called by the technical specialist and he/she determines the points value for the jumps.
I was wondering in the past when a triple jump looked like a triple jump during real time with no replay, was it given credit for being a triple triple combination?
Also was Shizuka's triple triples clean when she won the World's? Mao's? Irina's? Tara Lipinski's?

Ballade88 · Sep 20, 2017

I think the tech panel wields too much power. So much of a skater's scores depends on two people essentially. Back in the 6.0 days, the judges gave out the technical and artistic scores. I actually think having all the judges again do the technical scoring is a better idea. We all know that this is not a entirely objective process. Some people get called and others tend to get away with it more, even though it might look suspect. If we accept tech calls are subjective to a degree, I rather have a whole panel of 7-9 people scoring the elements than just two people.

Moxiejan · Sep 20, 2017

In the 6.0 days, imho, judges were pretty harsh on two-footed landings and step-outs, and pretty lenient on hooked landings. Especially in the short program.

Ares · Sep 20, 2017

I think they were usually giving full credit for such, esp. without replays (did they have them for preview?). Sarah Hughes OGM was the prime example imo.

Ballade88 said:
I think the tech panel wields too much power. So much of a skater's scores depends on two people essentially. Back in the 6.0 days, the judges gave out the technical and artistic scores. I actually think having all the judges again do the technical scoring is a better idea. We all know that this is not a entirely objective process. Some people get called and others tend to get away with it more, even though it might look suspect. If we accept tech calls are subjective to a degree, I rather have a whole panel of 7-9 people scoring the elements than just two people.

I agree with you.

gkelly · Sep 20, 2017

I'm pretty sure that judges had no instant replay until the mid-1990s (post-1994), at which point they did have some replay capabilities but I don't know the details. Only at big events? What video feed did they use? Could they each review every element they were interested independently of the rest of the panel?

There was no way for the public to know what they looked at and what they decided after looking should only get partial credit (or how much credit to give it).

I remember watching the US 1999 Junior World tryout competition in summer 1998 (which would not have had replay available). Sarah Hughes -- who was clearly going to win the competition regardless barring a meltdown -- landed a 3Lo+3Lo combination. Some of the judges gave her scores in the mid-5s and others low 5s. The jump combination had been performed right in front of the lower scoring judges. So we figured they had a good view of the tracings and could tell it had been cheated, while the further judges gave her benefit of doubt.

drivingmissdaisy · Sep 21, 2017

Ballade88 said:
I think the tech panel wields too much power. So much of a skater's scores depends on two people essentially. Back in the 6.0 days, the judges gave out the technical and artistic scores. I actually think having all the judges again do the technical scoring is a better idea. We all know that this is not a entirely objective process. Some people get called and others tend to get away with it more, even though it might look suspect. If we accept tech calls are subjective to a degree, I rather have a whole panel of 7-9 people scoring the elements than just two people.

I think this is probably impractical, as scoring already gets held up when numerous jumps are under review. The judges have plenty of things to assess without having to come to their own conclusion about whether a jump was rotated based on replay.

mrrice · Sep 21, 2017

Ballade88 said:
I think the tech panel wields too much power. So much of a skater's scores depends on two people essentially. Back in the 6.0 days, the judges gave out the technical and artistic scores. I actually think having all the judges again do the technical scoring is a better idea. We all know that this is not a entirely objective process. Some people get called and others tend to get away with it more, even though it might look suspect. If we accept tech calls are subjective to a degree, I rather have a whole panel of 7-9 people scoring the elements than just two people.

I don't mind the tech panel "Wielding it's power" as long as they wield it on a consistent basis. Figure skating fans are far more sophisticated, not mention skeptical, of the tech scores and it will even worse during an Olympic Season. YouTube didn't exist when I started watching skating. Now that we can all slow-mo videos at home, we'll be able to judge for ourselves. I also think that panels will feel the pressure this year as all eyes will be on them. Med just received a huge score and left the rest of field in the dust. However, when you watch her program, you'll see why got that big score.

Olympic seasons are always difficult for the judges as they feel the pressure from not only the skaters, but their Fed as well. I don't think this season will be any different.

Shayuki · Sep 21, 2017

The UR penalty in general seems a little too harsh. You can two-foot, hand-down a landing of a jump and it's still not going to hurt your score nearly as much as having a beautiful landing that's ever so slightly underrotated. When it comes to how impactful the mistake is to the entertainment value of the program, the punishment really isn't in line.

Another thing I'm bothered by is that URs are called pretty consistently and aggressively, but prerotation is free game. I think that that should be treated in the same way.

Ic3Rabbit · Sep 21, 2017

Ender · Sep 21, 2017

Ballade88 said:
I think the tech panel wields too much power. So much of a skater's scores depends on two people essentially. Back in the 6.0 days, the judges gave out the technical and artistic scores. I actually think having all the judges again do the technical scoring is a better idea. We all know that this is not a entirely objective process. Some people get called and others tend to get away with it more, even though it might look suspect. If we accept tech calls are subjective to a degree, I rather have a whole panel of 7-9 people scoring the elements than just two people.

Many top skaters UR and got away. Yes. Tech panel has too much power to manipulate the results.

keasus · Sep 21, 2017

fredtx121 said:
Right now many ladies skaters have been downgraded with under rotations especially on the second jump combination. With the "new" scoring system, these jumps are called by the technical specialist and he/she determines the points value for the jumps.
I was wondering in the past when a triple jump looked like a triple jump during real time with no replay, was it given credit for being a triple triple combination?
Also was Shizuka's triple triples clean when she won the World's? Mao's? Irina's? Tara Lipinski's?

Tara Lipinski's?

Blades of Passion · Sep 21, 2017

fredtx121 said:
Also was Shizuka's triple triples clean when she won the World's? Mao's? Irina's? Tara Lipinski's?

Shizuka's 3Lz+3T in the SP at 2004 Worlds was very underrotated, nearly a full half turn. In the LP she did it better but it was borderline at best. The 3S+3T was underrotated, the British broadcast replay shows it clearly.

Tara sometimes underrotated her 3Lo+3Lo but it was good enough at all of the competitions she won, except for probably the 97/98 GPF, where it looked a bit short.

Irina underrotated her 3Lo many times. The first time she attempted 3Lz+3Lo it was borderline at best and she never did it successfully after that until 2005 Worlds (where it ironically didn't "count" because she did 3 Triple Loops in the program). Usually Irina would have a bad landing when she underrotated, but at 2001 Worlds in the LP she did a "clean" 3S+3Lo with impressive height on both jumps, but it was still underrotated on the 3Lo.

Mao sometimes underrotated but she got dinged for it more than she should have.

Ballade88 · Sep 21, 2017

drivingmissdaisy said:
I think this is probably impractical, as scoring already gets held up when numerous jumps are under review. The judges have plenty of things to assess without having to come to their own conclusion about whether a jump was rotated based on replay.

It just doesn't seem right that so much of a skater's score depends on two people. Probably one in some cases. I rather have them take more time if that makes the scoring fairer because isn't that the whole point of COP?

There could be two separate panels one for tech and the other for presentation. The judges should be chosen based on their level of expertise and background. Judges ideally should have an arts/performance background or some experience to be on that panel imo.

noskates · Sep 21, 2017

I think there is another factor involved and that's the media! I think the television crews and their producers are far more savvy about figure skating than they were some years ago. Hence, unless you're a skater yourself, fans are more critical because they "see" more. I don't have a problem with the power of the two technical judges per se. As long as you have a sport that is judged by humans there will always be something to criticize. Track is easy - it's the stop watch! But sports that combine athleticism and performance such as skating or dancing or gymnastics.....there will always be questionable judging. Another example of a few people having the influence to change the outcome is baseball and umpires!! It's kind of all part of the sport. It's never going to be perfect.

I wouldn't mind competition being slowed down somewhat for replays if they got the calls right! Having to wait around to compete will be/would be hard on the next skater up though.

humbaba · Sep 21, 2017

What concerns me most about the tech panels is their ability to influence results simply by deciding who gets reviewed and who doesn't. It's as though there are two separate standards. Some skaters are judged by how an element appears in real time. Others are scrutinized in a slow motion replay. You'll find errors for most skaters if you look hard enough on slomo replays.

In a perfect world, judges would apply a fair and uniform standard to who gets reviewed and who doesn't. But the world isn't perfect, and in a worst case scenario, a tech panel could skew the results of a competition by choosing to fly speck elements of selected skaters.

lappo · Sep 21, 2017

What about introducing new equipments to help the tech panel? They are maybe going to introduce 3D scanner for gymnastics at the next Games (http://www.fujitsu.com/global/about/resources/news/press-releases/2016/0517-02.html) couldn't that be experimented in FS or are there technical problems that prevents it?

gkelly · Sep 21, 2017

lappo said:
What about introducing new equipments to help the tech panel? They are maybe going to introduce 3D scanner for gymnastics at the next Games (http://www.fujitsu.com/global/about/resources/news/press-releases/2016/0517-02.html) couldn't that be experimented in FS or are there technical problems that prevents it?

I'm sure it will happen someday. I hope someone is looking into developing technology that can answer the questions that tech panels are called upon to decide now. But coming up with something practical enough to use in both large arenas and local rinks with greater accuracy than the human eye on all the relevant details, that functions well in the cold and doesn't interfere with the skaters and judges doing their jobs, or with the media and the fans in seats, at a reasonable cost, is easier said than done.

It doesn't sound as though the gymnastics versions mentioned in that link are ready for use yet.

Ballade88 · Sep 21, 2017

humbaba said:
What concerns me most about the tech panels is their ability to influence results simply by deciding who gets reviewed and who doesn't. It's as though there are two separate standards. Some skaters are judged by how an element appears in real time. Others are scrutinized in a slow motion replay. You'll find errors for most skaters if you look hard enough on slomo replays.

Exactly! Maybe I am old school but the old system made more sense to me. I expected that some judges will be lenient while some will be stricter on technical elements. But with a larger panel, it should even out. The skaters who perform the elements with the best quality will still get the highest scores. The elements that are obviously performed badly will lose points. It is in those "grayer" situations where elements appear good to many but a few who see minor flaws that skaters would get the benefit of the doubt, which I believe they should in these cases. The old system was very subjective and manipulated often, but I actually don't see a problem with the structure itself. Inadequate technology hindered judges at the time, but that shouldn't be a problem today. Subjectivity and politics will never go away with any system.

lappo · Sep 21, 2017

gkelly said:
I'm sure it will happen someday. I hope someone is looking into developing technology that can answer the questions that tech panels are called upon to decide now. But coming up with something practical enough to use in both large arenas and local rinks with greater accuracy than the human eye on all the relevant details, that functions well in the cold and doesn't interfere with the skaters and judges doing their jobs, or with the media and the fans in seats, at a reasonable cost, is easier said than done.

It doesn't sound as though the gymnastics versions mentioned in that link are ready for use yet.

They say they hope to introduce it in time for Tokyo but I sincerely don't think it will be ready in time...however I remember a researcher came up with an algorithm to score pommel exercises and he addressed several problems that you also mention...cannot find the text now, unfortunately. However, he was still working to try and reduce these but I don't know if the system has been applied outside the research sample.

Under Rotations - Ladies

fredtx121

Ballade88

Moxiejan

Ares

gkelly

drivingmissdaisy

mrrice

Shayuki

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️

Ender

Match Penalty

keasus

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Ballade88

noskates

humbaba

lappo

gkelly

Ballade88

lappo

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