Concussions in Figure Skating | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Concussions in Figure Skating

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
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Jan 9, 2017
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1. Okay but the whiplash concussions are for spins not jumps from what I understand. So, your suggestion of getting rid of quads and limiting ladies to double, doesn't address that. Also, You seem to want USFSA do something about the issue, but anytime someone suggests that further research be done to determine the exact cause of concussions, you shoot it down saying they will never do anything. Are you suggesting that changes be made without doing research? That would be totally irresponsible as they could make changes and not have any idea if the rates of concussions is going down or not. Or if the changes may make the situation worse. There no research, therefore you have no idea if reducing speed will lead to less concussions or not. So, what exactly are you looking for someone to say here?

2. And if they make the suggestions you have put forth, watch the kids not want to be signed up because it isn't fun anymore. And watch the fans quit watching because every program is so slow it becomes boring. Then the sport dies for sure. Everyone is agreeing that the evidence is damning and the issue needs to be addressed. Stop acting like no one cares but you just because we disagree with your proposed solution.

Actually most whiplash concussions suffered by figure skaters (especially elite level) are from falls on jumps that cause a whiplash effect on the neck area/up into head area. That's what mine are from and I'm fairly sure Wagners as well.
 

brightphoton

Medalist
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
1. Okay but the whiplash concussions are for spins not jumps from what I understand. So, your suggestion of getting rid of quads and limiting ladies to double, doesn't address that. Also, You seem to want USFSA do something about the issue, but anytime someone suggests that further research be done to determine the exact cause of concussions, you shoot it down saying they will never do anything. Are you suggesting that changes be made without doing research? That would be totally irresponsible as they could make changes and not have any idea if the rates of concussions is going down or not. Or if the changes may make the situation worse. There no research, therefore you have no idea if reducing speed will lead to less concussions or not. So, what exactly are you looking for someone to say here?

2. And if they make the suggestions you have put forth, watch the kids not want to be signed up because it isn't fun anymore. And watch the fans quit watching because every program is so slow it becomes boring. Then the sport dies for sure. Everyone is agreeing that the evidence is damning and the issue needs to be addressed. Stop acting like no one cares but you just because we disagree with your proposed solution.

If the sport dies, then it dies. If figure skating becomes nothing but a bunch of old fodgeys doing figures, so be it.

Brains >>>>> triple jumps

We can all watch tennis instead.
 

bevybean

On the Ice
Joined
May 26, 2017
So, a the Dr. who discovered CTE just came out and said allowing children to play football is akin to child abuse. https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/08/08/bennet-omalu-cte-football
Not sure how I feel about that assessment. Though, I do wonder why football is getting so singled out and not boxing (where the whole point is to knock someone out) or hurling.

Separately...
Does anyone know if Rachel Flett is still working to gain more traction with USFSA about concussion prevention? I was thinking that some good points have been made here about questions we should be researching. I wonder if we want to share those thoughts with someone who is already working on the issue. Also, I recall reading something about Canada beginning a new study of how sports effect the body (might have been just figure skating or multiple sports but figure skating was included). I believe they are looking at more than just concussions and the goal is to come up with solutions to minimized negative impacts -- like different training exercises as well as protective gear. I'm wondering if USFSA might be able to partner up with them (e.g. Canada shares it's results and USFSA does different needed study and shares that info with Canada). It could help minimize the cost of doing the research for each country.
 

mrrice

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Wow. This isn't related to figure skating specifically, but it's an interesting development.

Dr. Bennet Omalu, the doctor credited with discovering chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), says that allowing children to play football is abuse and says there is nothing anyone can do to make the game safer.

I think he's right and I guess the Men who choose to play do it at their own risk. Between High School and College, I have been to hundreds of football games. At least once a season, a player will leave the game on a stretcher. It's the nature of the game. We have to remember that injuries will be a factor in almost every sport there is. For me personally, I still think Hockey is worse. Football cleats are scary but, they don't compare to the blades on hockey skates. The fact that they have sticks in their hands makes hockey one of the dangerous sports you can play. A 100 mile an hour fastball that hits you in the head will give you a concussion from the "impact" even if it hits your helmet.

Even non contact sports can be dangerous. Track, Diving, and Gymnastics have all had serious injuries happen during competition and the best we can do is prepare.
 

Sabrina

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
I don't think figure skating (singles) is prone to concussions. Most of the falls don't end up with any head hitting. There are so many falls we have watched in figure skating, and the worst i've seen was Anna Pogorilaya and the American guy (don't remember his name) hitting the boards when falling from a quad at Sochi Olympics. As bad as they looked there were no head hitting concussions in those falls. At least professional skaters look they have some sort of training in how to fall...For the risk reason backward salto/flick flacks are forbidden in figure skating competitions.
Pairs and dance are different. Anyway there are many other sports where the risk of concussion is huge.
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
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Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Country
Olympics
I don't think figure skating (singles) is prone to concussions. Most of the falls don't end up with any head hitting. There are so many falls we have watched in figure skating, and the worst i've seen was Anna Pogorilaya and the American guy (don't remember his name) hitting the boards when falling from a quad at Sochi Olympics. As bad as they looked there were no head hitting concussions in those falls. At least professional skaters look they have some sort of training in how to fall...For the risk reason backward salto/flick flacks are forbidden in figure skating competitions.
Pairs and dance are different. Anyway there are many other sports where the risk of concussion is huge.

Have you even read this thread and some of the info and links provided in it?:confused:
I'm a former elite singles figure skater (now pro) I have suffered multiple concussions (mostly whiplash) like Ashley Wagner and Evan Lysacek have spoken out about having multiples of themselves. Same with Joshua Farris and many others. Your head doesn't have to hit the ice or the boards to become concussed.

The guy you were talking about in Sochi is Jeremy Abbott who ended up cutting his ribs badly during that fall and he's very lucky he didn't get a concussion.
 

mrrice

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
I don't think figure skating (singles) is prone to concussions. Most of the falls don't end up with any head hitting. There are so many falls we have watched in figure skating, and the worst i've seen was Anna Pogorilaya and the American guy (don't remember his name) hitting the boards when falling from a quad at Sochi Olympics. As bad as they looked there were no head hitting concussions in those falls. At least professional skaters look they have some sort of training in how to fall...For the risk reason backward salto/flick flacks are forbidden in figure skating competitions.
Pairs and dance are different. Anyway there are many other sports where the risk of concussion is huge.

Does anyone remember the dance pair who was doing a rotational lift and the girl was dropped and she went flying across the ice. She wasn't doing anything extra difficult, I think they just missed a hand hold that was that....Does that sound familiar?

Here it is.....It was Marie-France Dubrueil and Patrice Lauzon of Canada. They were able to get back up and finish and though she didn't hit her head, it looks like she hurt her hip..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMTenThwNWs
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I don't think figure skating (singles) is prone to concussions. Most of the falls don't end up with any head hitting. There are so many falls we have watched in figure skating, and the worst i've seen was Anna Pogorilaya and the American guy (don't remember his name) hitting the boards when falling from a quad at Sochi Olympics.


Hmm. I dunno about that...

What about the spins though? Remember, the head doesn't have to be impacted for a concussion to occur - the brain just needs to be "rattled" enough to be injured (bump against the skull). Besides, I'm sure there are PLENTY of hard falls that occur everyday in practice that we do not see.
 

TGee

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Joined
Sep 17, 2016
Dr. Charles Tator, a concussion specialist, has been inducted into the Sports Hall of Fame in Canada for his work.

He writes in CBC Sports "Player's Own Voice" feature this week in favour of legislative efforts support injury prevention, while not specifically related to figure skating, he emphasizes the importance of having evidence to support changes in practice:

http://www.cbc.ca/playersvoice/entry/putting-legislative-teeth-into-concussion-debate

Among other initiatives, he discusses how an injury registry for Hockey in Canada has played a role in supporting efforts to decrease the number of spinal injuries.
 

VegMom

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Well I will say as a Skate Mom that my biggest fear is brain injury. My son started figure skating after he had been skateboarding for a while. He was already used to wearing a helmet for skateboarding and to me ice skating is really not very different. So I said he had to wear a helmet. Although he was the only non-toddler on the ice with a helmet, he wore it consistently and never complained about it. He understood - his brain is THE most important part of his body. He has to protect it as well as he can.

After a year of skating, coaches started telling me to take the helmet off. Of course not OUR coach though, she respected our decision. But she did explain that spins and jumps are going to get more difficult to do with a helmet since the helmet changes the weight distribution. So I sought out alternatives and now he skates with a RIB CAP, which is not a helmet but does offer some protection. He wears it all the time except for competition.

What we need is a specialized helmet designed for figure skating. If it were lightweight and thin but offered significant protection then I think it could work.
 

Hockeyguy

Rinkside
Joined
Sep 2, 2017
Incredibly thorny question. I can understand people thinking that health comes before anything and yes, we all agree on that except... all sports, all physical activities include risks of getting hurt. So in reality, it's a balance. Coming from a sport where head injuries made guys not being able to walk out of bed in a dark room for weeks and months, it's shocking to read that Ashley Wagner had 5 concussions.

Slowing down the sport on purpose is taking it away as a sport and we can just have ice shows then. A helmet is one option, although that would not help against whiplash. Helmets, also, you can't make them thin. Then they do nothing. Skating around in the JOFA helmet Wayne Gretzky had was like putting a big eggshell on your head, protection was basically zero.
It would have to be real helmets and it would take a long time for the figure skating community to adjust, and the audience. I mean, can you imagine Karen Chen in a thick helmet? I know it shouldn't matter how it looks but it does to most people.

I see a mix of education, personal responsibility and regulations as a realistic answer. Make sure all skaters know the risks involved, teach them how to avoid head falls as much as that is possible, have regulations to wear a helmet up to a certain age, make it mandatory to leave ice after a fall where head is involved, make it mandatory to pass concussion tests etc.

I have seen elite skaters fall badly and still keep skating through a session even if it's apparent they are not feeling well. I know there is a bit of a pride in the "you fall, get up and try again" but sometimes that is just stupidity.
 

TGee

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 17, 2016
Incredibly thorny question. I can understand people thinking that health comes before anything and yes, we all agree on that except... all sports, all physical activities include risks of getting hurt. So in reality, it's a balance.
.
.
.

I see a mix of education, personal responsibility and regulations as a realistic answer. Make sure all skaters know the risks involved, teach them how to avoid head falls as much as that is possible, have regulations to wear a helmet up to a certain age, make it mandatory to leave ice after a fall where head is involved, make it mandatory to pass concussion tests etc.

I have seen elite skaters fall badly and still keep skating through a session even if it's apparent they are not feeling well. I know there is a bit of a pride in the "you fall, get up and try again" but sometimes that is just stupidity.

Welcome to GS Hockeyguy! :clap:

That was a very cogent post. Please keep them coming. Hope you will find other discussions that you wish to weigh in on...
 

TGee

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 17, 2016
Well I will say as a Skate Mom that my biggest fear is brain injury. ....


Welcome to GS VegMom! :clap:

Hope you find lots to write about here....

BTW I'm also a skate mum...

Mine weren't in the rib caps as they arrived in our area just after our young skaters were beyond them. And we really don't see the rib caps in use beyond what is in Canada the STAR 1 level [was prepreliminary C in the past, but is the lowest level for events in figure skating after basic skating].

That said, Skate Canada absolutely does not permit any skater which has not passed CanSkate stage 5 [i.e. basic skating] to be on the ice at any time without a fully certified hockey helmet. Period. No exceptions, or the club loses it's liability insurance coverage.

This means that kids that may be starting the STARSkate figure skating program, but haven't met the full set of CanSkate 5 requirements [in control, balance, and agility] will have to wear a helmet. Even for tests and competitions. Judges are officially required not to take the helmet as a reason to mark a skater down. One of our young skaters went through an early test with a helmet on due to this legal requirement.

We see a lot more of the halos [band with some protection] at the lower STARSkate levels, but we aren't seeing them being worn in competition.

But as Hockeyskater noted, coaches are aware that in figure skating, many of the concussions are not due to hits to the head. They are due to percussive falls. A hard and flat fall on the body, especially when doing the higher rotation jumps at speed, can make the head flop and shake. Doesn't matter if the head hits the ice. And a series of these in one skating session can build up into a serious concussion.

So, different preventive techniques are needed. Some have discussed falls training, strengthening necks to avoiding flopping heads, and ensuring that a skater is assessed, and leaves the ice if necessary, after a hard hit --- whether or not the head hit the ice.

In the end....more solid scientific evidence is needed to know what will really make the difference.....which is why I felt it important to post that in Canada the brain specialists working in this area are being acknowledged by the sports community.
 

brightphoton

Medalist
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Dr. Charles Tator, a concussion specialist, has been inducted into the Sports Hall of Fame in Canada for his work.

He writes in CBC Sports "Player's Own Voice" feature this week in favour of legislative efforts support injury prevention, while not specifically related to figure skating, he emphasizes the importance of having evidence to support changes in practice:

http://www.cbc.ca/playersvoice/entry/putting-legislative-teeth-into-concussion-debate

Among other initiatives, he discusses how an injury registry for Hockey in Canada has played a role in supporting efforts to decrease the number of spinal injuries.

I know the USFSA doesn't care about concussions, which is why their response is very lazy (here are some PDFs and word documents, go away now) but it's interesting that Canada has an injury registery. Something that can keep track of who is getting injured and what types.

In figure skating, we don't even know how many or how often skaters get concussions.
 

mrrice

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Canadians.......Do you remember Wade Belak? He was a giant hockey player who was on battle of blades. He was known for getting into some brawls and I wonder if he suffered from concussion related PTSD. Junior Seau suddenly "went off the rails" according to his family and committed suicide and a study of his brain revealed that was suffering from concussion related effects.
 

brightphoton

Medalist
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
http://www.icenetwork.com/news/2017/09/11/253667206

I'm reading that the ISU may be lowering the point values for jumps. I think this is great. With less emphasis on jumps, the concussion rate and severity of concussions will definitely decrease.

Triple Toe: 4.3 -> 4.2
Triple Salchow: 4.4 -> 4.3
Triple Loop: 5.1 -> 4.9
Triple Flip: 5.3 -> 5.3
Triple Lutz: 6.0 -> 5.9

Triple Axel: 8.5 -> 8.0
Quad Toe: 10.3 -> 9.5
Quad Salchow: 10.5 -> 9.7
Quad Loop: 12.0 -> 10.5
Quad Flip: 12.3 -> 11.0
Quad Lutz: 13.6 -> 11.5
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
http://www.icenetwork.com/news/2017/09/11/253667206

I'm reading that the ISU may be lowering the point values for jumps. I think this is great. With less emphasis on jumps, the concussion rate and severity of concussions will definitely decrease.

Triple Toe: 4.3 -> 4.2
Triple Salchow: 4.4 -> 4.3
Triple Loop: 5.1 -> 4.9
Triple Flip: 5.3 -> 5.3
Triple Lutz: 6.0 -> 5.9

Triple Axel: 8.5 -> 8.0
Quad Toe: 10.3 -> 9.5
Quad Salchow: 10.5 -> 9.7
Quad Loop: 12.0 -> 10.5
Quad Flip: 12.3 -> 11.0
Quad Lutz: 13.6 -> 11.5

Sorry but i don't think lowering base value has anything to do with concussions... they happen on other elements as well ... and on top of that... if a skater has the potential to do quads, they will keep doing quads because it still means more points...
 
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