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Yeah, I can see that could be true.
So what about replacing the audience voting, with all the other skaters in each event voting on a scale of 1 to 10?
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'Radical change' could be on the way
- Thread starter andromache
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So what about replacing the audience voting, with all the other skaters in each event voting on a scale of 1 to 10?
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- Feb 17, 2010
I think skaters do take a hit on PCS with major mistakes, but the judges still have to give credit for the things executed well in the program. If you ignore the 5 seconds in the program that the skater is recovering from falls, the remaining 4:25 may be beautifully performed. It hard to knock of 20-30% of the PCS marks when you look at it like that, especially when other competitors in the same event have seconds-long gaps in choreography.
Whatever everyone on this Board may think about the proposals, *no one* and I mean *no one* on this Board is a "casual fan". If you can count revolutions in the air, if you know what edge skaters are taking off from, and whether it's the right one, you are not not not a casual fan. And I mean that in the nicest possible way:agree:
Nor do any of us (and I include my own sweet self in this sample) *know* what does and does not make figure skating popular, unless one of us is running a marketing research firm contracted to the ISU.
However, based on my own sampling of everyone I know and people I've met, my impeccable logic leads me to conclude that the "casual fan", when it comes to jumps, cares about jumps that are landed. Period. They don't care about revolutions, edges, flips, waxels, flutzes and faxels . They think we're funny for using those words (including the one I made up.) And they certainly don't care about "Oh my Laaawwd, we have to jump more revolutions and jump higher, cause it's a SPOOOOOORT". Never, ever, have I heard that, except from fans dedicated enough to frequent figure skating boards.
In my experience, these casual fans care very much about a comprehensive program that includes more than jumps. They want a program that makes sense with the music chosen, they care very much about step sequences, they like to see difficult, intricate, mind-bending spins. Skills which are just as athletic, difficult to master, and admirable as jumps.
And since that's what I've heard, and what I know, it must be so!eace: Does this proposal help that? Beats me. But if it does, then I say go for it:yes:
Actually...I can't count revolutions. I don't know what edge skaters are taking off from or whether it is the right one. So, I guess I AM a casual fan.
So, yes, falls are upsetting because they break up the "performance" of the program. Jumps are always impressive, but I've noticed lately, since I've been watching more skaters, that step sequences are definitely over looked. I use to think they were boring, so the interesting ones really stand out for me. The interesting thing is that the "interesting" ones from a performance stand point are also more difficult technically. I'd love to see more attention paid to them and other elements WITHOUT losing the jumps. And basically agree with what you pointed out as well as 4everchan's post just after yours.
IMO, they should keep the programs they have with adjustments to ensure the judging is done correctly and give more balance to the TES and PCS scores. And part of scoring correctly should mean that how well "known" you are shouldn't matter to your PCS (I hear all the time on here about skaters needing more exposure via competitions to get the PCS up and that isn't right) If they really want to reward them separately then give out a medal for the highest combined TES score and the highest combined PCS (combined meaning SP + LP for that event). But just 1 medal each. Then do the normal overall medals.
Why don't we have singles ice dance for all the skaters who cannot do quads instead of lowering technical difficulty?
:disapp:
Edit: Good idea
:disapp:
Edit: Good idea
BTW, as a former Theater Lighting Designer, lighting an ice show has to be one of the hardest things to light. Ideally you'd want side lighting so you can really highlight the body (which is done for dance always), but there is no where to put the side lights because the audience is on all sides. So, it basically gets limited to background color, background texture and spotlights. Not much to work with.
Edit: Technically, there are a few other options, but they would add time and $$$ to the whole process for what I'm sure would seem like very little gain. Maybe for a touring show (e.g. SOI) it would be worth it, but not the Gala that follows the competitions.
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Because technical difficulty is *not* not not not not just jumps.
So why don't we just have a jumping contest? Y'all who came to figure skating just for the jumps can watch it.
Those of who who started watching figure skating because of the amazing athletic ability required by spins and skating skills, which is a non-negotiable part of my definition of technical skill, can watch figure skating. :thumbsup:
See, it's a never ending cycle.....
Because technical difficulty is *not* not not not not just jumps.
So why don't we just have a jumping contest? Y'all who came to figure skating just for the jumps can watch it.
Those of who who started watching figure skating because of the amazing athletic ability required by spins and skating skills, which is a non-negotiable part of my definition of technical skill, can watch figure skating. :thumbsup:
See, it's a never ending cycle.....
but ice dance have everything except jumps.
I started to follow FS more serious just 10 years ago.
But in the 90`s figure skating in general was more popular, ice dance was more popular than ladies or men?
Because technical difficulty is *not* not not not not just jumps.
So why don't we just have a jumping contest? Y'all who came to figure skating just for the jumps can watch it.
Those of who who started watching figure skating because of the amazing athletic ability required by spins and skating skills, which is a non-negotiable part of my definition of technical skill, can watch figure skating. :thumbsup:
See, it's a never ending cycle.....
How many people can jump quads vs spin well? The champions of figure skating should be able to do what no one else can. Jumpers can learn to spin better, but can spinners ,who cannot do quads, learn quads? Nothing is more pleasurable than watching a great jumper become a well-rounded skater, who can do both artistry and technical elements at the highest level. I think it is always important to encourage the pursuit of technical excellence in every way, including jumping.
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I'm not surprised but disappointed.
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I *like* jumps. Good jumps. Landed jumps. That add to a program. I like men's singles. Where they jump.
But no one will convince me that jumps are a higher, better, more wonderful and more impressive part of the program than all other elements, and I won't convince them. That's cool, that's why we have boards:cool14:
The question is, what works out there in the great wide world of FS watching? None of us actually, really *know*. Which is why we can discuss this for 12 pages.
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I *like* jumps. Good jumps. Landed jumps. That add to a program. I like men's singles. Where they jump.
But no one will convince me that jumps are a higher, better, more wonderful and more impressive part of the program than all other elements, and I won't convince them. That's cool, that's why we have boards:cool14:
The question is, what works out there in the great wide world of FS watching? None of us actually, really *know*. Which is why we can discuss this for 12 pages.
i think one of the things here, if I may, is that there is always comments saying... bleh... quads... who cares.... well there are amazing high, well rotated, textbook quads.... that are just as beautiful than the triples... but with one more turn.... and I think that it makes skating even more exciting when such jumps happen... same with a gorgeous triple axel with lots of ice coverage.
So the issue here is not jumps nor quad jumps.. it's bad jumps....
one simple solution : do like diving or aerials.... punish more for jumps that are not landed on one foot... punish more for jumps that turn into falls... then skaters will take less risks and quality will be better... at the same time, those with gorgeous 3A or gorgeous quads will still be able to shine and keep the enthusiasm of fans alive.
the more i think about this, the more I hope there won't be a split of technical vs artistic... it's very silly in my opinion... because good technique is what leads to good artistic skating... some skaters may be great performers but if they skate on flat edges and don't master their blades, why should they be seen as better artists ? because they can mime or embody a character? meh....
I *like* jumps. Good jumps. Landed jumps. That add to a program. I like men's singles. Where they jump.
But no one will convince me that jumps are a higher, better, more wonderful and more impressive part of the program than all other elements, and I won't convince them. That's cool, that's why we have boards:cool14:
The question is, what works out there in the great wide world of FS watching? None of us actually, really *know*. Which is why we can discuss this for 12 pages.
I thought that you were implying that ice dance have not technical elements or technical difficult. But really it has much sense to me that the artistic part would be basically individual ice dance, I know it exist but it is not in the major events. I understand them (ISU), it would mean invest more money and time
hwell:.
Because technical difficulty is *not* not not not not just jumps.
So why don't we just have a jumping contest? Y'all who came to figure skating just for the jumps can watch it.
That reminds me op Top Jump Competition:
2002-03 Top jump - Full competition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhP3o9bh8uc
Yup. Let skaters include mostly jumps they can do reliably, with maybe one or two attempts at pushing their own envelope. And if they do fail on a difficult jump, let the negative GOE deduct significantly from the base value. And penalize in PCS and fall deductions as applicable as well.
Though I do think it's appropriate to allow a failed quad lutz to earn more points than a failed double lutz, even if it earns less than a good double lutz. Which is why I wouldn't erase all TES value for a jump that's rotated but not landed.
Absolutely. The guidelines for scoring an "artistic" program (or the artistic aspects of the current SP and "well-balanced freeskate") should focus on the skater's ability to use technical skating skills -- primarily edge-based skills but also jumps and spins and lifts etc. -- to achieve the artistic effects. Rewards for arm movements or facial expressions should be minimal, especially when performed while standing still or skating on two feet.
Which means that good judging of artistic skating by judging the use of skating skills for artistic purposes may often end up with different results than what casual fans find most aesthetically satisfying. But we serious fans can learn to be more wowed by upper body movement performed along with deep edges and difficult turns or in and out of difficult jumps than by the same movement performed during simple glides, etc.
Was not this already tried? I remember in 2008-2010, I think, people complained because quadruples or quadruple attempts were not sufficiently rewarded, and that punishments for mistakes were too hard, I remember people thought that was the reason no one tried difficult jumps.
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This is actually what is happening in almost all sports. It's FS that remains in its freak state. Sport is driven by popularity. If there is no popularity then there is no sport. I am perfectly fine with limiting FS to Russia, France, Italy, China, Japan, Korea and North America. Plus some single skaters from other countries. It's big enough.
Cross country skiing is practically limited to Scandinavian and Northern Europe countries, period. There is no point to eliminate Norwegians to make room for Ghana. Alpine skiing is limited to Europe and North America. That's reality. And if there is a talented skier from Tanzania then they have to prove their value by competing against Austrians. It's fair.
I'd rather see twenty Russian or Japanese skaters, than having them eliminated for Turkish or French Samoa skaters who can barely stand straight on ice, in the name of so called "diversity".
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i don't know.. but if it were tried.. then... it could explain why we had a quadless Olympic champion in 2010...
and then people complained.... so actually, here is the reality : people always complain no matter what
so we will be discussing this until the rules come.... and then... we will complain again LOLAn important distinction between figure skating jumps and elements in gymnastics or diving is that in FS there's a quantum leap in difficulty between triples and quads but really no intermediate level move in between. Which means you can do either a triple toe or quad toe, but can't do a 3.5 toe (not including cheated jumps). In diving and gymnastics you can add half twists or change your leg positions to vary the level of difficulty more incrementally. The partial credit given to flawed jumps kind of helps to bridge the gap between triples and quads.
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