Why are there only 6 basic jumps? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Why are there only 6 basic jumps?

Elsie

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 21, 2016
Not exactly.

I think most of the innovation we will see from here on will be new ways of combining and varying existing skills rather than inventing brand new types of skills.

I guess there's always the possibility to throw in hoops, balls, ropes, clubs and ribbons as in rhythmic gymnastics (as opposed to regular gymnastics). Just kidding! That would not benefit the technical evolution of figure skating at all, I think, but more likely the opposite, as the skater would certainly have to focus much more on the apparatus than on jumping or spinning. And I don't even know how much of that would be technically possible anyway as a floor is not comparable to the ice. Although I think I've seen some female skater with a hoop on the ice once (she was lifted in the air as well by some sort of cable), and also another skater with a chair or something.

So new jumps are out of the question, so it seems. Then I guess we'll have to wait until some man jumps a fully rotated quad axel, or until the ladies get all 5 (or even 6) jumps into quads (I hear some Russian junior girls are already working on that). But still it would not change the underlying jump as such. Only the number of rotations in the air.

What about jump combinations? Has the sport maxed out there as well? For instance, would it be possible to jump a quad as a second jump in a combo? Probably not. Or maybe some kind of transitional element between two jumps that is not currently being performed. The only one I can think of that is common, is the Euler (half loop).
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
So new jumps are out of the question, so it seems. Then I guess we'll have to wait until some man jumps a fully rotated quad axel, or until the ladies get all 5 (or even 6) jumps into quads (I hear some Russian junior girls are already working on that).

But still it would not change the underlying jump as such. Only the number of rotations in the air.

Maybe someone can do 2 or more revolutions from a takeoff that had only ever been used for half-revolution or single jumps before. Walley, inside axel -- I can show you one or two examples of doubles from the last 40 years; these never became common but might if they were built into the IJS Scale of Values with sufficiently high base values. Toe walley from a clockwise approach (for CCW rotator) and deep inside edge? Toeless lutz? (I've never even seen it done as a single)

We've seen delayed axels and split-(single) flip jumps, etc. Would it be possible for a skater to do a half revolution in split position on the way up and 1.5 or 2 revolutions on the way down to complete a double jump with a split delay, similar to an unassisted split double twist lift? Maybe it's impossible, or so incredibly difficult that the IJS rewards would have to be pretty substantial to encourage good jumpers to attempt it.

What about jump combinations? Has the sport maxed out there as well? For instance, would it be possible to jump a quad as a second jump in a combo? Probably not. Or maybe some kind of transitional element between two jumps that is not currently being performed. The only one I can think of that is common, is the Euler (half loop).

Lots of possibilities there.

Yes, quad as the last jump in a combo should be possible. There would need to be some kind of bonus to the last jump built into the scoring to make the risk worthwhile.

(See one-foot axel into 4S<<)

Double or triple jumps landing on back inside edge of the other foot (i.e., higher than single one-foot axel) into double/triple/quad salchow or flip

Combinations with jumps in opposite directions with lutz as the second jump

Sequences with jumps in opposite directions, sequences with one-foot turns in between

Jumps directly into or directly out of spins

Some of these have been attempted in the past, at least with double jumps, but probably not pushed to the limits of what's humanly possible. Add in sufficient bonuses to the scoring, and the good jumpers will find out and show us what's possible.
 

icetigger

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
Yes, quad as the last jump in a combo should be possible. There would need to be some kind of bonus to the last jump built into the scoring to make the risk worthwhile.

(See one-foot axel into 4S<<)

Double or triple jumps landing on back inside edge of the other foot (i.e., higher than single one-foot axel) into double/triple/quad salchow or flip

Combinations with jumps in opposite directions with lutz as the second jump

Sequences with jumps in opposite directions, sequences with one-foot turns in between

Jumps directly into or directly out of spins

Some of these have been attempted in the past, at least with double jumps, but probably not pushed to the limits of what's humanly possible. Add in sufficient bonuses to the scoring, and the good jumpers will find out and show us what's possible.

I think Hanyu can do a jump half-loop quad salchow combination, so he is likely to be the first to do quad as a latter part of a combination.; but at the same time, i don't think there is anything within the points system that would make it worthwhile: as you said, there should be. I think we are unlikely to see a quad toe-quad toe at any point too for this reason. i think the whole scoring of combinations should be looked at; and also where we are now the quads, we need to look at the possibility of allowing skaters to do two triple toes a the back end of a combination, without it contravening the zayak rule, so that triple become to quads, what doubles are to triples under the current rules.

It'll be interesting to see what effect the dropping of one pass from the men's Freeskate will have. Hanyu for example will lose least points by losing the flip, but the question is does he then replace the salchow in his quad toe half loop triple sal combination with the flip; or will any of the above be resorted to so that that loss of points is mitigated in some way. He could for example keep the flip and do a one footed triple axle in to a triple flip. i think it v unlikely though. But the knowledge of a loss BV for a programme due to reduce BV for quads and also one jumping pass might spur skaters on.

I'd love to see a double axle in to a spin or something like that, but I'm sure there is no reward for doing it.

I'd also love to see a John Curry change of tano jump, as he used to with a single axel, but how that would work with GOE is anyone's guess- can you get two boxes ticked for two difficult arm positions for the one jump?

Maybe the ISU should have a quote system, whereby the skater goes to them and says: if I do this with this feature, what will you give me, and then they can decide if it's worthwhile or not.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Welcome to the forum, Elsie, and thanks for the great thread! Post often, post long!

Also, I remember reading something about the lutz being originally jumped in the other direction compared to all other jumps, which is why it is such an awkward jump in its current form. Not sure if this is true or not.

Here's the one and only Sonia Henie doing a single Lutz in the opposite direction. (First element, at 0:25, skating to that old warhorse, The Sweetheart of Sigma Chi. You can also see from this clip where Alexei Yagudin got his famous "Winter" step sequence. ;) )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sjnfkEOpsE

Carol Heiss could do a single Axel in both directions.

I agree with gkelly that under the current scoring system the way to go would be to allow and reward combinations incorporating wrong-way elements. Something like a double Lutz counterclockwise/ double Lutz clockwise sequence would be beyond cool. (Wait a minute -- you could do that as a combination, right?)

The only part that I disagree with is the "awkward" part. Oh no, a triple (or quadruple) Lutz is a thing of beauty. (I do admit, though, that in general men are better at it than ladies.)
 
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EdgeCall

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Welcome to the forum, Elsie, and thanks for the great thread! Post often, post long!



Here's the one and only Sonia Henie doing a single Lutz in the opposite direction. (First element, at 0:25, skating to that old warhorse, The Sweetheart of Sigma Chi. You can also see from this clip where Alexei Yagudin got his famous "Winter" step sequence. ;) )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sjnfkEOpsE

Carol Heiss could do a single Axel in both directions.

I agree with gkelly that under the current scoring system the way to go would be to allow and reward combinations incorporating wrong-way elements. Something like a double Lutz counterclockwise/ double Lutz clockwise sequence would be beyond cool. (Wait a minute -- you could do that as a combination, right?)

The only part that I disagree with is the "awkward part. Oh no, a triple (or quadruple) Lutz is a thing of beauty. (I do admit, though, that in general men are better at it than ladies.)

This is something I keep wondering about. Since the Lutz is started from the outside backwards edge, how difficult would it be to add it in a combo, once you learned how to rotate it in the "wrong" direction? Someone who mastered it could get a significant point boost.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I guess there's always the possibility to throw in hoops, balls, ropes, clubs and ribbons as in rhythmic gymnastics (as opposed to regular gymnastics). Just kidding! ... Although I think I've seen some female skater with a hoop on the ice once (she was lifted in the air as well by some sort of cable), and also another skater with a chair or something.

All possible in the late, lamented professional skating shows. :cry:

I think this is the best-known hoop performance, in the United States at least. Rudy Galindo, Send in the Clowns. (For female skaters, I think Sasha Cohen has given it a try.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHSw4EgVAP4&t=2m38s

Irina Grigoryan, the hula hoop girl, toured with Champions on Ice for many years. (She may still be performing in Las Vegas.)

http://www.igsk8.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Irina_8_hoops-scaled.jpg

I know that Nicole Bobek is extending her career with a circus-type act where she is raised and lowered with ropes.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
I am almost positive that I've seen clips of Rohene Ward doing 2A's in both directions.

What I really think would be interesting is to see a jump combination that had an opposite-direction 3Z as the second jump.

In fact, if the combo had the opposite direction 3Z as the second jump, then it could be expanded to a 3 jump combo with a Lz jump as the third jump, too.

Theoretically, of course.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
This is something I keep wondering about. Since the Lutz is started from the outside backwards edge, how difficult would it be to add it in a combo, once you learned how to rotate it in the "wrong" direction? Someone who mastered it could get a significant point boost.

I have (once or twice) seen flip-lutz or lutz-lutz done in opposite directions with single jumps, by skaters who were comfortable with regular-direction doubles, not triples.

So I imagine that an opposite direction double lutz on the end of a normal triple of some kind would be possible for those top skaters who are reasonably ambidextrous. Also probably possible would be an opposite-direction double something into regular triple lutz. Triple in the opposite direction would be only for the very most ambidextrous (I believe Rohene Ward was capable of it), so triple-triple changing directions would really be pushing the limits.

These combinations would absolutely not be worth trying under the current rules, where there are no provisions to reward the extra difficulty of changing direction and a much higher likelihood of errors or poor quality leading to negative GOE.

But if appropriate bonuses were built into the scoring rules, then indeed someone who mastered it could get a significant point boost.

I'm curious what skaters who have tried reverse jumps think would be appropriate rewards. As a start, I'd suggest adding 1.0 per revolution to the base value of the jump. So an opposite-direction 2Lz would get an extra 2.0 added to its base value and more than double in value to about as much as a 3T. An opposite-direction 3Lz, should anyone manage to execute it, would get 3.0 added to the 3Lz base value and be worth about as much as a 4T.

That's not taking into account any additional bonus to combinations (which I would like to see), or the current 80% discount on sequence values, which could be eliminated if a combination bonus is introduced and if there is sufficient flexibility to penalize accidental sequences such as a skater hopping out of the first landing and then putting a 2T on the exit.
 

EdgeCall

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
An ambidextrous Lutz would also give the opportunity to score for a 3Lz twice without losing one of the two allowed jump repetitions. At least I see no reason to classify two mirrored jumps as the same when they actually need to be learned separately. One could do a 3Lz-3T and a 3F-3Lz and then a 3F-3T as well, since only the toeloop and the flip would count as repeated.
 

Vanshilar

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 24, 2014
As Gkelly mentions above, jumps are defined by their takeoff entry edge, if the toepick of the other foot assists, and if the rotation direction in the air is the same or opposite of the entry edge. For a typical (i.e. spins counterclockwise in the air) skater, the possibilities are (name without toepick, name with toepick):

RBO: loop, toe loop
LBI: salchow, flip
RBI (counter-rotated): walley, toe walley
LBO (counter-rotated): toeless lutz, lutz

Of these, the first four (which rotate in the air in the same direction as the takeoff entry edge) are part of the 6 basic jumps. For the others, a toe walley was redefined to be the same as a toe loop in terms of calling the jump in 1982. (To me, it seems like many videos of toe walleys actually flagrantly switch to the outside edge a long time before takeoff, i.e. I would call them as toe loops instead even if the toe walley existed separately.) A walley is used fairly often as a transitional element or as part of footwork, but it's difficult to generate multiple rotations out of it. I've yet to see a toeless lutz on video even though it's a named jump.

These are all going backward. For forward jumps, it's very difficult if not impossible biomechanically to have toepick assist (unless you do something like, take off with RFI edge then toepick assist with your left toepick to the left on your way up, sort of like a reverse flip, but I ain't gonna try that on the ice any time soon), so the toepick assist isn't used. Without the toepick then, the ways of getting into the air are:

LFO: axel
RFI: inside axel
LFI (counter-rotated): unknown
RFO (counter-rotated): unknown

The axel is one of the 6 basic jumps. The inside axel is also used as a transitional element like the walley. I'm not quite sure what an LFI or RFO entrance to a jump would even look like.

So this is basically the list of possible jumps. Out of the 8 backward possibilities, the four which rotate with the entry edge are part of the 6 basic jumps. Of the remainder, the toe walley was basically redefined and merged with the toe loop, while the lutz, due to the toepick assist (giving additional height), can be done with multiple revolutions and hence is also one of the 6 basic jumps. The others are very difficult to do with multiple revolutions and hence didn't become part of the standard 6 basic jumps. For the 4 forward possibilities (excluding the possibility of a toepick assist), the axel is the only one which made it. The inside axel can possibly be done with multiple revolutions, so I don't have a good explanation for that.

In fact I'd argue that the walley and inside axel (and the toe walley if done properly, i.e. staying on the right back inside edge) should be considered part of the set of jumps in their own right, with the difficulty in getting multiple revolutions resulting in more points. But then it'd lead to its own issues, because then they'd occupy jump boxes. Already I think it's a bad thing that jumps automatically occupy jump boxes, since it means you longer see programs with jumps interspersed throughout footwork etc., with the exception of those nonlisted jumps (walleys, etc.). But it's hard to write rules around that.

As for what other directions jumping can go, I can think of plenty. For example:

1. More air positions. I'm not just talking about tano and rippon, I'm talking about things like split lutzes, tuck axels, etc. But nobody does them nowadays because they'd occupy jump boxes and count as single jumps, thus taking away from doing more triples/quads (and hence getting more points). They would add to the variety of jumps, and quite frankly, I doubt most of the viewing public even understand the intricacies of salchow vs loop jump for example (they just see the skater getting into the air), but seeing different air positions would lead to greater visual variety.

2. Opposite-direction jumping. Jumps in combination are typically followed by the loop jump and the toe loop jump, because they have the requisite entry edge (RBO). In theory, a lutz jump could be done coming out of a another jump, if the skater rotates in the other direction. But that's very difficult to do, plus there's not really much of a bonus for it (maybe some +GOE), so nobody does it.

3. Landing position. Jumps usually land on the RBO edge because it's the most stable edge. You can land on the LBI edge but it's harder. Thus, people only do it for single jumps, i.e. the loop (where it's called the "half-loop") and occasionally the axel (where it's called a "one-foot axel"). In theory, people could learn to do it coming out of multiple revolutions, which would give a few more points; the current half-loop is scored like a loop, but a "double half-loop" would presumably be scored like a double loop, so that there's an incentive in its own right. Right now people do half-loops basically just so they can follow up with a salchow or flip in combination. But another way would be if landing forwards had an intermediate point value. I'm thinking of something like a 1.5 flip (landing forwards) into an axel.

4. Horizontal rotation. I'm thinking of something like the butterfly twist done on the ice. People already do the butterfly as an entrance to a spin, the butterfly twist is that but bringing the legs together while in the air to rotate. Some people do this for show, such as Richard Dornbush here: http://web.icenetwork.com/video/v216788383 (at around the 2:38 mark, after the backflip). In martial arts the butterfly twist, double butterfly twist, and even a small number of triple butterfly twists are done nowadays: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehj-0IORZCw I don't think the martial arts tricking world has really studied how to rotate efficiently though (i.e. be in a "pencil" position in the air) as much as the figure skating world.

It's not exactly somersaulting, since the head doesn't go underneath the feet, rather the body is close to horizontal and rotates on a horizontal axis (although it also precesses). So I don't know if there's actually anything in the rules against it.
 

champs

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
I think Hanyu can do a jump half-loop quad salchow combination, so he is likely to be the first to do quad as a latter part of a combination.; but at the same time, i don't think there is anything within the points system that would make it worthwhile: as you said, there should be. I think we are unlikely to see a quad toe-quad toe at any point too for this reason.

Except that 4T-4T (or 4whatever-4T) isn't totally pointless as it allows a three-quad short program for a skater who has mastered only two kinds of quad. (Unless a quad as the second jump of a combo is explicitly prohibited in the rule book.)
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Except that 4T-4T (or 4whatever-4T) isn't totally pointless as it allows a three-quad short program for a skater who has mastered only two kinds of quad. (Unless a quad as the second jump of a combo is explicitly prohibited in the rule book.)

Actually, it has never been allowed.

The current requirement for the men's short program jump combination, which has been true since 1999 season, is "c) Jump combination consisting of a double jump and a triple jump or two triple jumps or a quadruple jump and a double jump or a triple jump."


Skaters will have to do quad-quad combos in freeskates before the rules get changed to allow them in short programs. (Assuming the whole structure of the SP doesn't change significantly before any skaters master that skill.)
 

Elsie

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 21, 2016
As Gkelly mentions above, jumps are defined by their takeoff entry edge, if the toepick of the other foot assists, and if the rotation direction in the air is the same or opposite of the entry edge. For a typical (i.e. spins counterclockwise in the air) skater, the possibilities are (name without toepick, name with toepick):

RBO: loop, toe loop
LBI: salchow, flip
RBI (counter-rotated): walley, toe walley
LBO (counter-rotated): toeless lutz, lutz

LFO: axel
RFI: inside axel
LFI (counter-rotated): unknown
RFO (counter-rotated): unknown

So this is basically the list of possible jumps.

As for what other directions jumping can go, I can think of plenty. For example:

1. More air positions. I'm not just talking about tano and rippon, I'm talking about things like split lutzes, tuck axels, etc. But nobody does them nowadays because they'd occupy jump boxes and count as single jumps, thus taking away from doing more triples/quads (and hence getting more points). They would add to the variety of jumps, and quite frankly, I doubt most of the viewing public even understand the intricacies of salchow vs loop jump for example (they just see the skater getting into the air), but seeing different air positions would lead to greater visual variety.

2. Opposite-direction jumping. Jumps in combination are typically followed by the loop jump and the toe loop jump, because they have the requisite entry edge (RBO). In theory, a lutz jump could be done coming out of a another jump, if the skater rotates in the other direction. But that's very difficult to do, plus there's not really much of a bonus for it (maybe some +GOE), so nobody does it.

3. Landing position. Jumps usually land on the RBO edge because it's the most stable edge. You can land on the LBI edge but it's harder. Thus, people only do it for single jumps, i.e. the loop (where it's called the "half-loop") and occasionally the axel (where it's called a "one-foot axel"). In theory, people could learn to do it coming out of multiple revolutions, which would give a few more points; the current half-loop is scored like a loop, but a "double half-loop" would presumably be scored like a double loop, so that there's an incentive in its own right. Right now people do half-loops basically just so they can follow up with a salchow or flip in combination. But another way would be if landing forwards had an intermediate point value. I'm thinking of something like a 1.5 flip (landing forwards) into an axel.

4. Horizontal rotation. I'm thinking of something like the butterfly twist done on the ice. People already do the butterfly as an entrance to a spin, the butterfly twist is that but bringing the legs together while in the air to rotate. Some people do this for show, such as Richard Dornbush here: http://web.icenetwork.com/video/v216788383 (at around the 2:38 mark, after the backflip). In martial arts the butterfly twist, double butterfly twist, and even a small number of triple butterfly twists are done nowadays: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehj-0IORZCw I don't think the martial arts tricking world has really studied how to rotate efficiently though (i.e. be in a "pencil" position in the air) as much as the figure skating world.

It's not exactly somersaulting, since the head doesn't go underneath the feet, rather the body is close to horizontal and rotates on a horizontal axis (although it also precesses). So I don't know if there's actually anything in the rules against it.

Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone! Like I said in my first post, I'm not a skater myself so the technical descriptions are sometimes hard to follow, but I'm trying my best.

I can't say I see much of a difference between a toe loop and a toe walley. Not by looking at it from a distance anyway. So far, these are the suggestions I like the most:

1. Second jump of a combo done in the opposite direction. Surely this SHOULD earn lots of bonus points. If skaters can get high GOEs on every jump simply for adding a tano (and not even a pretty one) even though the execution of the underlying jump is dubious (as in wrong-edged) then I don't see why skaters who can do their jumps in both directions should not be rewarded for it. Plus it would be so cool to see a combo with the second jump changing the direction.

2. Any regular jump but landed forward instead of backwards (i.e. with an extra half rotation in the air, or one half rotation less) followed by an axel.

3. Butterfly twists. Not sure if these could be an element on their own or should be combined with another jump.

4. An idea I came up with by myself: something like the "hop, step and jump" as in the triple jump in athletics. So basically a combination jump that starts with one of more "jump-like" elements that introduce the actual jump. Not being a skater myself, I'm probably saying silly things, but I think this kind of introductory elements are already being done, e.g. Mohawk. When I first started following figure skating (just watching on TV, not doing it myself), Maria Butyrskaya was at her height, and she always did something like a Mohawk (it could have been something else for all I know) before going into one of her jumps, probably a flip. It seemed to me that no one else was doing that sort of thing, or maybe I didn't notice it with the others. Anyway, when Maria did it, it looked awesome. But it was only one "turn" or something on the ice, not several in a row.

I keep wondering if figure skating has really maxed out or does it just think that it has. I can imagine that 100 years ago they thought the same thing: everything has been done before, and there's not going to be anything new. But so many things have been added over the past century, and the sport is getting more and more difficult from a technical point of view, that one wonders if maybe some day a really clever skater could come up with something entirely innovative that no one has seen before.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
1. Second jump of a combo done in the opposite direction. Surely this SHOULD earn lots of bonus points. If skaters can get high GOEs on every jump simply for adding a tano (and not even a pretty one) even though the execution of the underlying jump is dubious (as in wrong-edged) then I don't see why skaters who can do their jumps in both directions should not be rewarded for it. Plus it would be so cool to see a combo with the second jump changing the direction.

Yes, it should. First the ISU needs to write in the rewards to the scoring system, then the skaters will learn to do it. It's too difficult to be worth their while without any guaranteed reward.

2. Any regular jump but landed forward instead of backwards (i.e. with an extra half rotation in the air, or one half rotation less) followed by an axel.

The problem with forward-landing jumps is that they're landed on two feet, usually the toepick of one foot and a gliding edge of the other. Look at split jump landings for an example. The way the human foot is structured, landing forward on a single forward edge without the toe assist from the other foot just isn't very stable. It's almost never done with half-revolution jumps, and I've only ever seen it done once after 1 full revolution from an axel takeoff (Gary Beacom, 1984 freeskate -- although I once read in an old Skating magazine about some American girl doing it in the 1970s). The Beacom example is too slow and cautious to get another axel directly off the landing of the first jump. Let's accept that the mechanics of the human foot will not allow for one-foot forward landings with speed, especially with more than one revolution.

1.5 jumps taking off backwards (usually flip or toe loop) and landing forward with toepick assist were first done in the 1930s and continued to be fairly common into the 1970s, usually in a sequence such as half, 1 1/2, double, with a turn between each jump. They lost popularity around the time triple jumps became important. Because of the two-foot landing, even if the skater went into an axel afterward without having to turn backward in between, it would still be considered a sequence and not a true combination.

A 2.5-revolution jump landed forward (with toepick assist -- trying to land forward on one foot after that much revolution would probably end with the skater falling on their face) would be hard to control and likely look like a mistake (failed triple) even if intended. Even a 1.5-revolution could look like a failed double to younger/less historically minded viewers or tech specialists/judges who don't remember when they were common 45-80 years ago.

We do occasionally see them as highlights in step sequences or choreo sequences recently. I'll see if I can find an example when I get a chance.

Under IJS, the trick would be writing rules to allow these forward, two-foot landing jumps to be valued as transitional moves rather than downgraded doubles or triples that fill a jump box and require negative GOE, while still allowing punishment of the more common failed jumps.

True jump combinations with forward-landing jumps are impossible; sequences currently earn only 80% of the base value for two hardest jumps. If the sequence penalty were ever removed, then the sequences might be worth doing. Assuming they could meet today's current strict restrictions against turns or steps between jumps, or if those rules could be relaxed.

3. Butterfly twists. Not sure if these could be an element on their own or should be combined with another jump.

Can they take off from one edge with or without toe assist and be landed on one foot? If yes, then they could be considered difficult variations of whatever standard jump takeoff they use, and there should be some flexibility in the GOE rules to allow more reward for more difficult variations. If they can only be done with two-foot landings and takeoffs, they will remain unlisted elements that would be fun in choreographic sequences or as transitions but perhaps not worth doing without base value.

There are acrobatic moves that are difficult and impressive off ice that can be done on the ice with skates on and maybe even some gliding speed in and out that's impossible on land. They would therefore be even more impressive and difficult on ice. But the difficulty is related to taking an acrobatic move and complicating it with the slipperiness of the ice and the sharpness of the blades -- not by developing a new skill that relies on what blades are supposed to be doing in figure skating (one edge on one foot at a time).

Moves that don't rely on edges can be used as choreographic highlights, but they're not going to be rewarded as technical skills if they rely on technique that isn't based in skating technique. Skaters could do cartwheels or walkovers or handsprings on the ice too, and certainly splits on the ice -- but they're not skating skills, so they don't get points.


4. An idea I came up with by myself: something like the "hop, step and jump" as in the triple jump in athletics. So basically a combination jump that starts with one of more "jump-like" elements that introduce the actual jump. Not being a skater myself, I'm probably saying silly things, but I think this kind of introductory elements are already being done, e.g. Mohawk. When I first started following figure skating (just watching on TV, not doing it myself), Maria Butyrskaya was at her height, and she always did something like a Mohawk (it could have been something else for all I know) before going into one of her jumps, probably a flip. It seemed to me that no one else was doing that sort of thing, or maybe I didn't notice it with the others. Anyway, when Maria did it, it looked awesome. But it was only one "turn" or something on the ice, not several in a row.

The most common turns preceding jumps are mohawks and three turns. Very very common and not usually difficult. More difficult turns such as brackets, counters, and choctaws directly into a jump, are worth more.

Small hops immediately preceding jumps are also relatively common. Especially walleys, or Split jumps before toe loops or flips. If we're talking about unlisted jumps (half revolution and/or takeoffs other than the six standard ones), then they count as transitions. Full single or higher jumps can be used in jump sequences.

The short program requires steps or other skating moves immediately preceding one of the jumps. The IJS rules explicitly reward preceding moves -- steps, turns, nonlisted jumps, gliding moves like spirals and spread eagles -- immediately before any jumps.

I keep wondering if figure skating has really maxed out or does it just think that it has. I can imagine that 100 years ago they thought the same thing: everything has been done before, and there's not going to be anything new.

Almost everything that can be done on edges has been attempted, but not with multiple revolutions in the air.

Skills that don't rely primarily on edges are not considered skating skill that advance the sport on its own terms.

One problem with IJS was that it wrote in rewards for the kinds of skills that were common at the beginning of the 21st century when the IJS rules were written, and a few that were rare or forgotten but soon became all too common as soon as there was an explicit reward for them.

Other types of skills that were rare or forgotten 15-16 years ago never got written into the rules, and in some cases the way the rules were written punished them outright (e.g., the jump sequence penalty) or made them not worth doing (split/delayed single jumps, or 1.5 forward-landing jumps, that would be scored as single with positive or downgraded double jumps with negative GOE and block a box that could have been used for a higher value triples). Or just weren't rewarded at all for adding risk and difficulty and therefore not worth risking (putting the harder jump at the end of the combination; opposite-direction jumps).

So the first place to encourage new envelope pushing is to rewrite the IJS rules to explicitly reward these kinds of difficulty and encourage skaters to come up with new variations and combinations that deserve high point values.

Meanwhile, if any skater can come up with brand-new edge-based skills, they should show them off and get them added to the Scale of Values. Easier said than done in most cases.

If they can come up with new, original types of skills that are not primarily about edges but that fit into skating programs in ways that enhance and don't disrupt the skating, then they should use them as transitions and in choreo sequences. We do see some fun moves there.

How could rules be adjusted to encourage even more experimentation in those areas?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I think the bottom line here is this: if it is originality that we want, we should look to the artistic side. Even if we manage to expand the number of allowed jumps and combinations, there will still be only a short list of technical elements that carry a base value and fill a CoP box.

On the other hand, there are a million ways to interpret Carmen, and we have seen only half of them so far. ;)
 
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mrrice

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
I would definitely be into seeing a No-Pick Lutz. Maybe at the end of a spiral....:handw: Now that I think of it. A No-Lutz is basically a loop, right? Back to the drawing board..:scratch3:
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I like the idea of a one foot axel...I think a combo like this with a sal or even loop or flip on the end is really different but still pleasing to the eye and not awkward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2yvKa6gUQA

There were a few skaters in the 6.0 era who used this combination (Jill Trenary, Michael Chack -- see his attempt at the quad sal from one-foot axel that I linked in post 22 above, Michael Slipchuk, Nicole Bobek come to mind). I wish the IJS gave a bonus for the second jump in a combination, which would make 1A+3S more valuable than 3S+2T, as it should be.

The salchow benefits from landing the one-foot axel with speed, as in the example you linked.

Flip takeoff doesn't like such a deep edge. I think it would be significantly harder to pull off a triple, or to make it look pleasing and not awkward. But hey, if the available point values were high enough, someone would give it a try.

One-foot axel into any kind of loop would require a change of foot and therefore make it a sequence rather than a combination, so the skater would lose points to the sequence multiplier. Better to encourage double-triple combinations with 3Lo at the end through a bonus to the second jump.
 

Elsie

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 21, 2016
I wasn't really aware of all the technical limitations with take-offs and landings. It's nice to have it explained by people who are more knowledgeable than I.

One more question: what is so wrong with a two-foot landing? All jumps need to be landed on one foot in order to be validated (I think) but I don't really understand why. Is that because it stops the motion and practically leads to a stand still on the ice, whereas one-foot landings keep the momentum going? Or is that not important at all?
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
The whole point of figure skating is skating on edges -- one foot at a time, curving either clockwise or counterclockwise.

Valued technical moves are based on different ways of getting from one edge to another, whether through turns or steps or jumps, and/or harnessing the rotational forces that are inherent in curving edges.

Multirevolution jumps are just elaborated versions of the basic jumps.

Advancing the sport of figure skating would mean coming up with new edge-based moves or more difficult variations of existing moves.

It's possible to do non-edge-based moves on ice, and they're welcome in moderation as choreographic highlights in freeskating programs, but they're not part of the technical basis of figure skating as figure skating.

See the Edges and Turns thread I made in the Figure Skating References forum a couple years ago.

That will also answer some of your questions about jump entries, or you could start a discussion about them in that thread or in a new thread either under Figure Skating References or under The Edge. (Maybe even this thread if we want to get into basic entries and more original entries as ways to advance the sport.)

I'd appreciate if you post something in the thread -- even if it's just to complain about some of the links being expired -- to bump it back up to the first page of the reference forum.


Landing on two feet (or taking off from two feet) is not an actual skating skill. The only difficult part would be the rotation in the air, and that's not a skating skill either.
 
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