David Wilson on Sasha Cohen

[mrrice]

But then again, at the 1998 World Pro Michelle Kwan did 3Lz+2T, 3T+2T, 3Lo, 3F, 2A, 3S, 3Lz, 3T. (She was hoping for 3T+3T, but when it didn't happen she stuck on the extra 3T at the end (instead of a split jump) to bring up her jump count to seven triples.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0bggmmcVTs

By the way, the most satisfying figure skating event I ever attended was a local show headlined by Yuka Sato and Faiella and Scali, which otherwise featured local club skaters at various levels. Sato did a triple toe, skating to Amazing Grace. Not a dry eye in the house, certainly not mine.

I wrote up a report of the show for Golden Skate, waxing luxuriant about all the double Axels, etc., that some of the youngsters performed. Then someone came on the board who had participated in the show to say, um, Mathman, those were single Axels. (Reason number 512 why I am not figure skating judge.)

I remember Michelle's "Lamento d'Ariane" program very well. As everyone knows, I saw the program in person at Worlds in 1999. As great as Michelle was at the 1998 Pro Am competition, she not as good at Worlds. I think she was sick from what I recall. She was quite slow and didn't have her usual depth to her performance. Michelle's landings were shaky, she also missed her Triple Triple and ended up only landing 6 triples to Maria's 7.

 

[Blades of Passion]

This may upset some of you but, here's how I feel about this choreography situation. I certainly respect David's position that he doesn't like to alter another choreographer's work. However, if I'm a skater who needs my program altered and David won't do it, I will simply call someone else. Skating is an expensive sport and I can't imagine sticking with a program that is not successful. I don't care who it offends.

Definitely agreed and here comes the problem in the current environment of the skating world when certain choreographers are involved: because of their attitudes about the sanctity of their own work, competitors are scared that accepting any outside voice on the matter could result in these choreographers not wanting to work with them anymore. Worse than that, it could result in said choreographer bad-mouthing the skater and thus the skater being held down by judges because of it.

This is something that should not be. Choreographers in this sport are there to work for the skaters, not the other way around. This isn't like the world of dance, where people audition to be in a show and it's about finding the right dancers for the material. No, in competitive figure skating, the show is the collected performances of the various INDIVIDUAL skaters and the only way to make the show better is to make each individual program the best it can be.

So, in realizing that, it can be seen why a communal effort is a good thing. There should be no stigma at all in a different choreographer approaching a skater and saying "I think it would work better like [this]." What harm is there in providing ideas? Again, no single choreographer is infallible and no single choreographer can do it all. So let's make sure every program is the best it can be, something that actually gives the audience emotion and entertainment on a level that makes them really interested in skating and makes skating competitive amongst the thousands of other options people now have.

Sometimes, it's the coach who alters the program, usually watering it down.

This is another important detail in the debate. Choreography gets changed all the time in order for skaters to be able to do their jumps better. So a single choreographer's work is frequently being altered anyway. There's no use in being okay with it under that pretense and then being offended when it's changed because a better option was introduced. With the complexity of the rules especially, it's crazy to think that any single person is ever going to create the best programs on their own every single time.

 

[Mango]

I can see at least two reasons why choreographer collaboration might not work.

One is the style of individual choreographers. For example, Christopher Dean may not give you a free dance similar to David Wilson. If you worked with both, you might eventually be forced to choose one over the other. That may not be the best example, but you can imagine what I'm talking about. Sometimes styles and opinions about everything from music to costuming vary so much that you really need fewer people's input. I think this is also why many skaters choose their costumes and consult with the choreographer for music, but leave the actually choreography up to the choreographer. Then coaches tweak to get a better fit as required.

The second is money. What you're describing may be affordable to top level senior skaters. But it may not be affordable to have numerous choreographers for junior athletes or even athletes who are financially strapped. I mean, some federations force their skaters to reuse their programs for another season because they don't want to pay for new choreography. How expensive is it going to get if multiple professionals are involved?

 

[SarahSynchro]

Is it public knowledge how much money a renowned choreographer like David or Lori make per program?

 

[4everchan]

This is another important detail in the debate. Choreography gets changed all the time in order for skaters to be able to do their jumps better. So a single choreographer's work is frequently being altered anyway. There's no use in being okay with it under that pretense and then being offended when it's changed because a better option was introduced. With the complexity of the rules especially, it's crazy to think that any single person is ever going to create the best programs on their own every single time.

Except that there is a difference between watering down a program, removing some choreography to give more time to a skater to prepare, and hiring another choreographer to play around with the design... In the context of a sport, maximizing the chances to land a jump is more important than a couple turns.

Finally, I don't think it's crazy at all to believe that one person can create the best program ever on their own.... . If you really insist about talking about creation and art, well the great masterpieces in fine arts were not created through the compromise of multiple people working together... but by the inspired genius of one artist. Team work can lead to great things, but it also involves compromising... I'd be curious how you are willing to let others tamper with your work???(that is rhetorical, no need to answer)

If you put the choreographer in a role similar to a composer, then having some other choreographer alter a program later on, is pretty much like an arranger would come up and change things Mozart or Beethoven would have written... very easy to understand why David Wilson is not interested in becoming some other choreographer's arranger... and hopes that others won't play with his work. One last example.... let's say someone thinks that adding a spread eagle in a section of a program would be so awesome.... as it works with the music etc.... haven't you considered that the original choreographer may have also noticed that opportunity but chose purposely not to include it for a ton of reasons ? Unless you are working as a team, a unit, you have no idea about what went through the head of a choreographer when they did their work... so it's a bit out of place to suggest that you would know better than the original choreographer what the program needs to reach perfection.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I can see at least two reasons why choreographer collaboration might not work.

One is the style of individual choreographers. For example, Christopher Dean may not give you a free dance similar to David Wilson. If you worked with both, you might eventually be forced to choose one over the other. That may not be the best example, but you can imagine what I'm talking about. Sometimes styles and opinions about everything from music to costuming vary so much that you really need fewer people's input. I think this is also why many skaters choose their costumes and consult with the choreographer for music, but leave the actually choreography up to the choreographer. Then coaches tweak to get a better fit as required.

The second is money. What you're describing may be affordable to top level senior skaters. But it may not be affordable to have numerous choreographers for junior athletes or even athletes who are financially strapped. I mean, some federations force their skaters to reuse their programs for another season because they don't want to pay for new choreography. How expensive is it going to get if multiple professionals are involved?

No problem at all if an elite skater would just go directly to BOP to start with for a perfect program. Why pay someone else for an inferior product to be doctored by him later? Unless BOP can only reform a program but not design an original?

How much do you charge, BOP?

 

[mrrice]

Definitely agreed and here comes the problem in the current environment of the skating world when certain choreographers are involved: because of their attitudes about the sanctity of their own work, competitors are scared that accepting any outside voice on the matter could result in these choreographers not wanting to work with them anymore. Worse than that, it could result in said choreographer bad-mouthing the skater and thus the skater being held down by judges because of it.

This is something that should not be. Choreographers in this sport are there to work for the skaters, not the other way around. This isn't like the world of dance, where people audition to be in a show and it's about finding the right dancers for the material. No, in competitive figure skating, the show is the collected performances of the various INDIVIDUAL skaters and the only way to make the show better is to make each individual program the best it can be.

So, in realizing that, it can be seen why a communal effort is a good thing. There should be no stigma at all in a different choreographer approaching a skater and saying "I think it would work better like [this]." What harm is there in providing ideas? Again, no single choreographer is infallible and no single choreographer can do it all. So let's make sure every program is the best it can be, something that actually gives the audience emotion and entertainment on a level that makes them really interested in skating and makes skating competitive amongst the thousands of other options people now have.



This is another important detail in the debate. Choreography gets changed all the time in order for skaters to be able to do their jumps better. So a single choreographer's work is frequently being altered anyway. There's no use in being okay with it under that pretense and then being offended when it's changed because a better option was introduced. With the complexity of the rules especially, it's crazy to think that any single person is ever going to create the best programs on their own every single time.

This comment deserves 10 likes.....

 

[Blades of Passion]

How much do you charge, BOP?

Definitely less than others are!

As for the rest of your post, this is not about any one person. It's about the skating being the best it can be and how collaboration often creates the best result. Again, the construction of any program is about ideas, in service of a specific skater and with regards to a whole season.

Finally, I don't think it's crazy at all to believe that one person can create the best program ever on their own.

I never said it was, you're not listening. It's about consistency and about having an open mind.

For example, Christopher Dean may not give you a free dance similar to David Wilson. If you worked with both, you might eventually be forced to choose one over the other.

Hmm, this isn't about two separate programs. It's about taking an initial program and running it through an additional viewpoint. You take the best ideas of both. Maybe in the end you do just incorporate mainly the ideas of only one of those people, but what does that matter? In the end it's about the skater having the very best vehicle they can.

This is not much different than how there are many "takes" (different versions of the same scene) during the process of creating a film and in the end you put together what you think the best takes are.

What you're describing may be affordable to top level senior skaters. But it may not be affordable to have numerous choreographers for junior athletes or even athletes who are financially strapped.

I'm just saying it should be an option. It wouldn't necessarily cost more money either. People can just pro-bono offer suggestions, you know? The act of flying to a choreographer (or flying them to you) costs more, yeah, and if people like the suggestions being offered and want to work with the person to refine the ideas, then perhaps they will invest in that. This process sometimes happens with a single choreographer anyway, but it could be multiple instead, not relying exclusively on the original choreographer. Sometimes relying on one choreographer is impossible to begin with because the schedule conflicts. The second choreographer could even, *gasp*, correspond with the first one, and the initial choreographer can discuss the two sets of ideas if they feel so inclined.

 

[4everchan]

Bop.. i wonder who is not listening and who doesn't have an open mind you are indeed the one who started this discussion sending a bunch of flack David Wilson's way because he doesn't touch other choreographers work.... and has reasons for it.... why don't you use your open mind to accept his statement as is ? As far as I know, he is a sought-after choreographer.. His opinion on the subject probably has more value than ours, simple fans...

 

[Blades of Passion]

When have I ever said it's wrong for David Wilson to personally not want to work on any program other than one that was exclusively created by him? (even though he did do such a thing, so again let's not pretend he hasn't)

The problem is when this personal preference is forced onto everyone else. He can have his religion and go to the church/temple he wants. That doesn't mean everyone else should. And please don't bring superficialities into this (the amount of fame a person has) or place an inaccurate description on me.

 

[4everchan]

When have I ever said it's wrong for David Wilson to personally not want to work on any program other than one that was exclusively created by him? (even though he did do such a thing, so again let's not pretend he hasn't)

The problem is when this personal preference is forced onto everyone else. He can have his religion and go to the church/temple he wants. That doesn't mean everyone else should. And please don't bring superficialities into this (the amount of fame a person has) or place an inaccurate description on me.

page 1 is not very laudatory about David Wilson. I will leave it at that.

 

[Mango]

Hmm, this isn't about two separate programs. It's about taking an initial program and running it through an additional viewpoint. You take the best ideas of both. Maybe in the end you do just incorporate mainly the ideas of only one of those people, but what does that matter? In the end it's about the skater having the very best vehicle they can.

This is not much different than how there are many "takes" (different versions of the same scene) during the process of creating a film and in the end you put together what you think the best takes are.



I'm just saying it should be an option. It wouldn't necessarily cost more money either. People can just pro-bono offer suggestions, you know? The act of flying to a choreographer (or flying them to you) costs more, yeah, and if people like the suggestions being offered and want to work with the person to refine the ideas, then perhaps they will invest in that. This process sometimes happens with a single choreographer anyway, but it could be multiple instead, not relying exclusively on the original choreographer. Sometimes relying on one choreographer is impossible to begin with because the schedule conflicts. The second choreographer could even, *gasp*, correspond with the first one, and the initial choreographer can discuss the two sets of ideas if they feel so inclined.

My post was about multiple choreographers working on one program. The example I gave was Dean and Wilson. Their styles I find are quite different. An amalgam of their styles may be interesting, but I think it's more likely that a team would choose one man's choreographic input over the other's. Choreographers have different styles and you would have to find a harmony that works. Then there is also the issue of choreographers cooperating. I can see if multiple people are involved someone being upset that their idea was rejected or someone else's idea was selected over their own, especially if they feel that the idea being kept is inferior. If the skater makes the final decision about what stays and goes, then you'll have choreographers who are unhappy with the skater's judgement. Do these problems sound plausible?

As for using multiple choreographers - that option exists even now. As mentioned, Wilson himself is collaborating with Marie-France Dubreuil for Julianne and Charlie's FS, and most likely Tessa and Scott SD and FD. There is nothing stopping anyone from talking to multiple people about their programs. Some choreographers may not want to change the choreography done by others, but that's their choice and you can always go to another choreographer. And coaches do tweak choreography. Even Wilson's work. He mentioned that Johnny Weir's coach significantly altered his choreo for Johnny's 2010 Olympic SP. So it happens.

But I honestly don't think pro-bono and figure skating mix. Even coaches who offered their services for free apparently had deals to earn money off the skaters later in their career. And even if choreographers collaborated, I don't think they'd charge much less money. With more people and ideas the construction of programs would likely take longer and if they bill by the hour it would end up being more expensive (not even mentioning ice time here).

 

[Blades of Passion]

I'm not sure what your point is about taking longer. Someone makes a program for a skater. The skater trains it and then skates it early in the season. Someone else sees the program and says "these aspects of it would be better if you did [this]." Yes it would take some work to change the program, maybe just a little or maybe more than that. But that's what all improvement takes? Putting the effort in. If the sport actually cared about and rewarded such things, then it would simply become the standard. Everyone would see it as normal and necessary. In ice dance this is a bit more common.

 

[Mango]

I'm not sure what your point is about taking longer. Someone makes a program for a skater. The skater trains it and then skates it early in the season. Someone else sees the program and says "these aspects of it would be better if you did [this]." Yes it would take some work to change the program, maybe just a little or maybe more than that. But that's what all improvement takes? Putting the effort in. If the sport actually cared about and rewarded such things, then it would simply become the standard. Everyone would see it as normal and necessary. In ice dance this is a bit more common.

Ah, you and I are talking about different times for collaboration. You are talking about during the season. I was talking about when the program is being first put together. When it's being first constructed a lot of things get thrown around and thrown out. So that's what I meant. If it's during the season then it would be ok, I guess? You'd still have to pay for consultation though.

 

[NYscorp6]

Sasha has worked with some of the best choreographers, starting with Mr. Nicks, Tatiana, Nikolai, Marina, Lori and David Wilson. Not to mention the various tour choreographers. As David stated in this interview other than to music edit, less was more and she just needed to figure out the timing of the tricks. I wish more of todays skaters would expand their reach with choreographers and get out of their comfort zone. There are way too many cookie cutter programs today, with the same spins, moves etc. year after year. Not to mention my pet peeve of using/masking bad posture and weird facial expressions as a way to project some type of supposed modern dance movement. All that said, both versions of Sasha's Romeo and Juliet were beautiful.