2018 Olympic Season: Ice Dance

[Mrs. P]

After what the Shibs did in Russia, they are pushing up and they will not be denied these OG. These two have nerves of steel. The improvements they showed at SA was commendable. I really hope they score at least bronze. They have two great programs this season. While I feel for H/D I find their FD a bit too heavy and monotonous. I'm not really feeling the heat many claim to feel when watching these two. Their S/D does much better on that score. But really looking forward to the GPF, maybe these dancers would like to change our perception of things.

I like when the Shibs win over skeptics.

I do still think Hubbell and Donohue will be formidable competition. There's a gap, but not that much in Ice Dance terms. It will be interesting to see how they stack up at GPF. Also Chock and Bates. Four years ago, Chock and Bates were indisputably the best of this trio and it's weird to see the roles reversed at the moment.

 

[bramweld]

I like when the Shibs win over skeptics.

I do still think Hubbell and Donohue will be formidable competition. There's a gap, but not that much in Ice Dance terms. It will be interesting to see how they stack up at GPF. Also Chock and Bates. Four years ago, Chock and Bates were indisputably the best of this trio and it's weird to see the roles reversed at the moment.

Mrs. P., respectfully, I don't find C/B's situation weird at all. They were too inconsistent last season with their twizzles and even footwork sequences. I can't recall if they had more than one or two clean competitions. Also the constant changing of programs must be dizzying for them. Something isn't quite right in Igor's camp. I call it delayed onset of Marina withdrawal. If C/B decide to stay on I have a feeling they will change camps.

EDIT: My odds on favourites are still the Shibs, their nerves of steel muscles are just bigger

 

[Mrs. P]

I agree it's not weird in that sense, but weird in how things have flipped so greatly. I would have not imagined this scenario now back in 2014. Chock and Bates looked like they were leaving both the Shibs and Hubbell and Donohue in the dust and there was no looking back and that continued through the 2014-2015 season.

I agree something strange is going on in that camp.

 

[gmyers]

Just a flawed twizzle compared to H/D's disastrous twizzle pulled C/B down to 8th place, and 7th overall (from 4th in SD down to 8th in FD). So they were heavily penalized. And speaking of mistakes, Cizeron's fall in their FD did not prevent them from scoring 110.16. And by the way, despite Zach's disastrous fall, their FD earned 101.17.

That’s a lot better than Russia has done is recent years. US teams do have margin for error. No Russian team does and has no chance for any success. Getting so into the weeds and specifics damages overall point in saying US teams are always better off than any Russian team.

 

[Astrid56]

C/B were either 1) misguided concerning their music choices or 2) chose willfully ill-conceived career decisions which backfired on them big time. They should have started preparing for the 2018 Olympics from 2016-2017 season not just this year. Constant program changes were dangerous and nerve-wracking hence their mistakes in practically every competition including the very last one _World Team Trophy where again Evan botched his twizzle. I think, it is also a coach-related issue which started in 2015-16_ Igor advising them to use Rachmaninoff Concerto 2 and not having the right choreographer in mind for that FD (while Najarro is a good choreographer, the style needed for this music is not within his area of expertise: Marina Zueva would have done well, Zhulin has done well with the music). I think Rohene Ward would have given them a good choreography just based on his work on their last year S/D. I also think that they were underscored both in their SD and FD in 2015-16 Worlds but in 2016-17, they were brought down by their constant mistakes. Now, the SD seems ok but the music for their FD is kinda iffy for a competition like the Olympics. I hope that both dances will be competitive in the GPF or they’ll end up 5th or 6th in that competition and 3rd in the Nationals. With that said, I haven’t lost confidence in their ability to win a 4th place in GPF or even a 2nd place in the Nationals. They’re hard-core competitors as evidenced in 2015-16 and 2016-17 Nationals and in these last two competitions.

I think, the Shibs using DWTS dancers’ guidance and instruction for their SD is strategic. These DWTS dancers honed to do show dances are more equipped to teach them appealing movements/patterns suitable for ice-dancing. Of the 6 dances SD, C/B’s is the most Latin but it’s tanking on ranking based on scores, so what gives? What is going on? I think ice dance judges care more about ice-dance elements happily blending with their perceived Latin dance moves/steps and music/rhythm. It’s still about speed, skating skills, and, most importantly, dance elements performed to their personal satisfaction and bias.

 

[bramweld]

I agree with most of your arguments, but saying that C/B has the most latin flavour, I'm not quite there yet. They are all quite unique in their own way, but I've found C/B and C/L the most cautious of the top 6. If they could get over their skates properly and skate their programs as they're intended the top 5 or 6 could be very tight indeed. If...They all have pretting interesting FDs as well but my favourites this season actually come from V/M, P/C and the Shib Sibs.

 

[Astrid56]

I love the FD of P/C, V/M, and H/D. All three are completely different and unique. I suppose, V/M purposely decided a Tango approach to their FD hence the music choice or the music decided it for them. As for P/C, I know they'll stick to their preferred style having successfully competed with this approach _ they're NOT going to take a major risk in an Olympic season. As regards H/D, they probably chose this Olympic-driven FD based on the results of their 2016-17 SD in Worlds - the style suits them perfectly. As to how C/B will fare in this week's GPF, that remains to be seen as it will depend again on improvements (in terms of techniques) they made on their SD and FD and, of course, who will comprise the judging panel.

 

[chameleon]

Chock/Bates changed their FD once, and very early too(I first heard the rumor at the end of May/beginning of June). I don't think they even finished choreograping La La Land before they scrapped it.

I heard that they were dealing with an injury over the summer- I don't know if that's true or not, but only their TES has been suffering scorewise, thus far, their PCS has been in line with what they need it to be. We'll see how they've progressed in the past few weeks. I like the choreography of both programs a lot, and if they skate them at full strength it'll be quite impressive.

 

[meem]

So, is anyone skating to music from La La Land? Ashley bought a program using that music, practiced with it and then dumped it and returned to MR for the 3rd time. IMO, it's just not skate-able music (not sure how to describe skate-able music, but you know it when you hear it I guess!)

Chock/Bates changed their FD once, and very early too(I first heard the rumor at the end of May/beginning of June). I don't think they even finished choreograping La La Land before they scrapped it.

 

[Sherlock Marple]

So, is anyone skating to music from La La Land? Ashley bought a program using that music, practiced with it and then dumped it and returned to MR for the 3rd time. IMO, it's just not skate-able music (not sure how to describe skate-able music, but you know it when you hear it I guess!)

Check this list by xeyra. You have to scroll down to see who skated to La La Land.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Check this list by xeyra. You have to scroll down to see who skated to La La Land.

Thanks! I wonder if anyone felt that they wanted to do La La Land but decided not to due to early announcements and how they feel once they didn't pan out. I'm sure they're happy with their choices now and really if they wanted to skate to it they would have done it anyway.

Maybe Coldplay and should be put on that list since there are eight skaters using it this season. They're different pieces but it seems "Fix You", "The Scientist", "O", and "Sky Full of Stars" are the most common pieces and some times three of those aforementioned pieces are in one program.

 

[blancanieves]

Of the 6 dances SD, C/B’s is the most Latin but it’s tanking on ranking based on scores, so what gives? What is going on? I think ice dance judges care more about ice-dance elements happily blending with their perceived Latin dance moves/steps and music/rhythm. It’s still about speed, skating skills, and, most importantly, dance elements performed to their personal satisfaction and bias.

I take exception to the “most Latin” labeling. Latin American is an umbrella term that houses many rhythms of music/dance. So skaters are interpreting various Latin American rhythms, all of which should look different from each other in aesthetic and feel. A Rumba shouldn't look like a Salsa. A Samba shouldn't look like a Merengue, etc.

If “most Latin” is supposed to refer to the choice of music, movement authenticity is independent from the choice of music. For the dance aspect of a program, judges are evaluating above all how well the skaters' movement matches the tempo and character of the rhythm. We see this on a show like Dancing with the Stars frequently. As long as the music displays the identifiable tempo of the particular rhythm, whether the recording is traditional, non-traditional or which time period it comes from is less important.

 

[chameleon]

La La Land has been pretty common for juniors down, but the only notable seniors using it are Astakhova/ Rogonov I believe, along with the second half of Dabin Choi's SP from last season.

Overall, I feel like there has been a pretty good upward trend in the quality of Latin SD since 2011/12. Which isn't to say that everyone is knocking it out of the park, but it feels like a lot more people went to dance class this summer. Honestly, my biggest complaints have been about the music editing and structure. Very few teams pulled off the slow rhumba middle section that is unfortunately extremely common, although there were some I liked or at least didn't mind(I actually quite liked Lorenz/Polizoakis', V/M and P/C are okay, Chock/Bates are also good, possibly because its very short due to them putting the partial to faster music, among others.)

 

[Robin83101]

La La Land has been pretty common for juniors down, but the only notable seniors using it are Astakhova/ Rogonov I believe, along with the second half of Dabin Choi's SP from last season.

Overall, I feel like there has been a pretty good upward trend in the quality of Latin SD since 2011/12. Which isn't to say that everyone is knocking it out of the park, but it feels like a lot more people went to dance class this summer. Honestly, my biggest complaints have been about the music editing and structure. Very few teams pulled off the slow rhumba middle section that is unfortunately extremely common, although there were some I liked or at least didn't mind(I actually quite liked Lorenz/Polizoakis', V/M and P/C are okay, Chock/Bates are also good, possibly because its very short due to them putting the partial to faster music, among others.)

I'm a ballroom dancer, not a skater, so I can't comment on skating specific issues like the execution of the required slow rhumba section. I will say though, that I really appreciate and was thrilled to see how much P/C's choreography and costumes actually incorporated the typical elements of latin dancing! Latin torso and hip movements are very characteristic and specific to the genre. They aren't easy to learn if you aren't used to them and P/C executed them beautifully, especially Cizeron. Gabriella's fringy costume is typical of Latin dresses designed to accentuate those torso movements. Unless Christopher Dean is a closet latin expert, I would guess P/C spent a lot of time with a ballroom expert (Jean Marc Genereux, maybe? he is based in Montreal). It was really thrilling to see how their choreo reflected Latin dance. I did not see similar elements in V/M's SD which seemed to be basically danced with a straight torso. JMHO, clearly the judges did not agree as the two teams received essentially equal marks for composition and presentation.

 

[Bcash]

I'm a ballroom dancer, not a skater, so I can't comment on skating specific issues like the execution of the required slow rhumba section. I will say though, that I really appreciate and was thrilled to see how much P/C's choreography and costumes actually incorporated the typical elements of latin dancing! Latin torso and hip movements are very characteristic and specific to the genre. They aren't easy to learn if you aren't used to them and P/C executed them beautifully, especially Cizeron. Gabriella's fringy costume is typical of Latin dresses designed to accentuate those torso movements. Unless Christopher Dean is a closet latin expert, I would guess P/C spent a lot of time with a ballroom expert (Jean Marc Genereux, maybe? he is based in Montreal). It was really thrilling to see how their choreo reflected Latin dance. I did not see similar elements in V/M's SD which seemed to be basically danced with a straight torso. JMHO, clearly the judges did not agree as the two teams received essentially equal marks for composition and presentation.

Thank you for the input as a dancer familiar with the genre! I've had a similar impression. V/M's arm and head movements are very eye-catching but after watching their program after P/C's, it's clear that P/C's movements are more substantially Latin even though they skate to a pop track.

 

[anyanka]

My gut reaction from the GPF:

- P/C have just outpaced V/M. The Moonlight Sonata was a work of art, and they now have the advantage on the SD too. They're solidly co-favourites to win OGM, not just contenders. It's no longer a coronation of V/M for the second gold. That FD had Bolero- / Mahler's Fifth-style levels of landmark all over it. It's a mesmerizing, iconic piece, their best ever.

- V/M were great as usual, but the program just loses life in the last minute. They need to re-configure the music and at this point there's very little time, given that nationals are a month away and the holidays are in between. I think they'll still skate it well, like they did with The Seasons, they just need to tighten it up a bit and make the ending more memorable. Right now it's just so quiet and not cohesive. Scott in particular looks laboured next to the French, but Tessa seems to have found her groove as a performer, she's glorious. Still love them though and am not counting them out for OGM (at least if they get the team gold then I'll be sated).

- Shibs have gone to the well on Coldplay as a motif one time too many. Anyone else noticed they were ranked 6th in the FD? Even the Italians did better than they did. That was an uncharacteristically "meh" skate from them. They look good for 3rd at OG but it's not a lock by any means, they had that SD lead to prop them up. Competition is tight because this was like a mini-nationals for US with their teammates breathing down their necks.

- H/D: This is a wonderful team, but they are still learning how to channel their energy and compete. Still, they have now inched ahead of C/B as a more likely #2 nationally. I'd like to see them progress, because that FD is HOT.

- C/B: I'm still baffled by the music choice. They skated well today, no major mistakes, but they've become a bit of an afterthought. Shibs are considered the leaders in the US while H/D are the hot young up-and-comers. C/B are starting to get lost in the shuffle. The FD doesn't give them a chance to shine like their American in Paris or Rach 2, which allowed them to brilliantly showcase Chock in particular. Team medal, maybe?

- C/L: I love this program. They may not have the technical difficulty as the other top teams, but I found that I'd much rather watch this beautiful, fluid piece any day over C/B's tepid "Imagine", W/P re-heating "Je Suis Malade", or B/S and their latest avant-garde-art-think piece. The Italians are lovely and polished but they will need more innovation rather than just being pretty to stay in the conversation. They may not have their Olympic moment unless all the Americans, WeaPo AND B/S have a bad day. They'll have their moment with this piece at worlds on home ice in Milan and I can't think of a better way for them to say goodbye to their careers. Life is indeed beautiful.

Takeaway: We appear to have settled into a battle for the gold between two sets of training mates, sounds familiar? Except has there been an established #1 and #2, the way it was with D/W vs. V/M? They won't go head-to-head again until OG, so we won't have a rematch before then. The battle is third but although the Shibs are looking good, the other two US teams are nipping on their heels. It's a shame the lovely Italians, always crowd pleasers, seem to have gotten lost in the shuffle a bit. The top 2 teams appear to have a stranglehold on the first two podium places, the question is who will end up third? Again: sound familiar? Remember at Sochi it was P/B, B/S, W/P and C/L, but I/K broke through (and then subsequently broke up). Is this the year that no Russian dance team ends up on the Olympic podium (which would make Ilya Averbukh apoplectic)?

 

[Anyasnake]

It's going to be so weird if no Russian team is on the podium but at this point I don't see anything else besides US, CAN, FRA.

Also, since 2006, there has always been a US team on the Olympic podium (Silver, Silver, Gold, and more likely Bronze his year). US is almost the new Russia in Ice Dance... the depth of the field is big. And they can medal in 4 years if top 3 US decide to stay too.

 

[anyanka]

It's going to be so weird if no Russian team is on the podium but at this point I don't see anything else besides US, CAN, FRA.

Also, since 2006, there has always been a US team on the Olympic podium (Silver, Silver, Gold, and more likely Bronze his year). US is almost the new Russia in Ice Dance... the depth of the field is big. And they can medal in 4 years if top 3 US decide to stay too.

Good point! Also, even if one of the top 3 retired (Shibs?), then C/B and H/D can battle it out, and they have the Parsons plus Hawayek / Baker on the rise, not to mention Carreira / Ponomorenko too. We all know Anthony's parents of course (that 1992 FD is still one of my all time faves).

 

[Barb]

- Shibs have gone to the well on Coldplay as a motif one time too many. Anyone else noticed they were ranked 6th in the FD? Even the Italians did better than they did. That was an uncharacteristically "meh" skate from them. They look good for 3rd at OG but it's not a lock by any means, they had that SD lead to prop them up. Competition is tight because this was like a mini-nationals for US with their teammates breathing down their necks.

I noticed it too!! . I very much doubt that this kind of performance will be repeated this season.

 

[MRani]

My gut reaction from the GPF:
- Shibs have gone to the well on Coldplay as a motif one time too many. Anyone else noticed they were ranked 6th in the FD? Even the Italians did better than they did. That was an uncharacteristically "meh" skate from them. They look good for 3rd at OG but it's not a lock by any means, they had that SD lead to prop them up. Competition is tight because this was like a mini-nationals for US with their teammates breathing down their necks.

The Shibs weren’t 6th in the FD because they’re skating to Coldplay for the second time and had a “meh skate.” They were 6th because they made uncharacteristic mistakes and weren’t clean technically. Just a couple of weeks ago they skated that program clean and got 115, which would’ve put them 3rd in the FD here.