Thoughts on Evgenia Medvedeva's 2018-19 Season

[macy]

Skaters themselves need to take responsibility for their careers, there are a multitude of reasons why some skaters are not as successful as other skaters, it could be financial, injuries, genetics and more. There is no such thing as a 100% success rate.

there is not ONE coach who has a perfect success rate with students. i'd even say it's more likely to have only one or two very successful students out of a whole bunch. a coach cannot and therefore will not coach every student to the same successes, it doesn't matter if you are a no name coach from the smallest skating club or in this case, a coach of multiple world and olympic champions and medalists. there are way too many factors that go into this, and i'll say it again, you cannot compare across situations. every single one is different, every skater is different. if this wasn't the case, you would have every skater coached under every high level coach achieving world class status.

 

[moriel]

Who are you, and what did you do to Moriel?

Just regular moriel. I know you people love to paint me as a hater, but i just say what i see all the time, being good or bad.
If it makes you feel better, I think Zhenya is just an average skater, not as naturally talented as a few others (her jumps are not as great as ones by Tuktamysheva, her spins are not as amazing as ones by Lipnitskaya and so on), and its her work ethics that made her the best and enabled her to win everything during last years.

 

[Fluture]

Just regular moriel. I know you people love to paint me as a hater, but i just say what i see all the time, being good or bad.
If it makes you feel better, I think Zhenya is just an average skater, not as naturally talented as a few others (her jumps are not as great as ones by Tuktamysheva, her spins are not as amazing as ones by Lipnitskaya and so on), and its her work ethics that made her the best and enabled her to win everything during last years.

Which is absolutely true. Very few ladies have a jumping technique like Tuktamysheva, it is textbook even though she‘s pretty inconsistent. Lipnitskaya‘s spins are gorgeous of course, they were her trademark. To my mind there‘s no (Russian) lady who comes close to Yulia‘s spins at the moment. Evgenia isn‘t as athletically talented as other elite skaters. For two seasons until Alina arrived she only had her consistency that really stood out in the technical department. Alina outclasses her in the pure technical ability by miles. However, there‘s something else Evgenia has. You already mentioned it: Love for the sport. And something that I believe to be innate: the ability to connect with the spectators and express the emotions she has while skating. And obviously her work ethics.

Oh, and because someone else mentioned this: Eteri‘s approach is successful. IF you are healthy. Evgenia‘s foot and she herself couldn‘t endure the constant run throughs,ih was just not possible physically. We‘ll see how the trainer with Orser works out but I honestly don‘t think he doesn‘t care at all and lets skaters just slack off if they want to. The „North American training style“ can be so disciplined and strict, too.

 

[skatingfan200]

. Evgenia isn‘t as athletically talented as other elite skaters.

What do you mean exactly? Spins?

For two seasons until Alina arrived she only had her consistency that really stood out in the technical department. Alina outclasses her in the pure technical ability by miles.

Why did not Zhenya upgrade her jump layout at the begin of the two last seasons? :think: It was not the ability

http://the-real-xmonster.tumblr.com/post/170009379034/im-asking-because-i-genuinely-dont-know-but
About Alina and Zhenya´s jumps.

 

[moriel]

What do you mean exactly? Spins?

Spins, yep. I mean, Zhenya is good, Lipnitskaya is talented.
Jumps also - compare hers to the jumps of Tuktamysheva, Tsurskaya, or even Osmond (well, both flutz, but still). Specifically comparing to Tuktik, i don't think it is even a matter of technique or how she was coached, some sort of innate athletic ability - she wouldn't jump like Tuktik or Tsurskaya even if Mishin coached her since she first put her skates on, probably. It does not mean she is bad, its a thing where 95% is hard work and 5% is talent, and she only doesn't have those 5%. On the other hand, there are quite a few rumors about Tuktamysheva's poor work ethics, for example, which could explain her meh performances.



As for expression... Zhenya has been doing essentially the same thing for over 3 years (and in such span of time, someone can be coached into performing quite well simply by repetition). I would like to first see her doing some different programs before I can judge that.

 

[andromache]

What do you mean exactly? Spins?

I can't remember who (maybe Tarasova?) but I think sometime during the off-season in an interview someone said that Evgenia pretty much lacks natural talent and is just a really, really hard worker. Which makes sense. Having long, thin legs isn't great for jumping (compared to Alina or Liza T., say, who are more compactly-built) and her spins have never been amazing. But she's smart and determined as heck and has competitive grit like no one else. The only innate "talent" other than her grit and steady nerves is probably how great she is at emoting with her eyes.

 

[Mrs. P]

If you look at her junior days, she really was not a standout among the pack of rising Russian ladies at the time, relatively speaking.

For all the things she still has to work on now, she's come a long way since her debut junior season in 2013-2014 (even though she did well and won quite a few medals).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG6tuE-2ey0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH1p7U_Zg_A

 

[Shayuki]

I'd say that Medvedeva's greatest natural talent is competitive nerves and that's a more important talent than many more. It's what many who had everything else have lacked. And it's probably the most important thing of them all when it comes to winning championships.

 

[50 Words for Snow]

Spins, yep. I mean, Zhenya is good, Lipnitskaya is talented.
Jumps also - compare hers to the jumps of Tuktamysheva, Tsurskaya, or even Osmond (well, both flutz, but still). Specifically comparing to Tuktik, i don't think it is even a matter of technique or how she was coached, some sort of innate athletic ability - she wouldn't jump like Tuktik or Tsurskaya even if Mishin coached her since she first put her skates on, probably. It does not mean she is bad, its a thing where 95% is hard work and 5% is talent, and she only doesn't have those 5%. On the other hand, there are quite a few rumors about Tuktamysheva's poor work ethics, for example, which could explain her meh performances.



As for expression... Zhenya has been doing essentially the same thing for over 3 years (and in such span of time, someone can be coached into performing quite well simply by repetition). I would like to first see her doing some different programs before I can judge that.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Eteri said in an interview that Zhenya isn't naturally gifted at skating and took longer to learn things than the other girls, had to work harder at it, and lost more ground during a vacation than most of the other students did. She's not a prodigy; she's just dedicated and stubborn.

 

[yoloaxel]

Are Zhenya’s jumps as good as Tuktamysheva’s? No. Are her spins as good as Lipnitskaya? No.

But the idea that she’s average and untalented is also pretty untrue. Her spins are very good, her jumps are okay at worst (2A is acceptable) and excellent at best (loop, Salchow). Her steps are good, her interpretation is good.

Most importantly, she doesn’t have a category where she just really lacks: Tuktamysheva has awesome jumps but she has well below average spins and interpretation. Lipnitskaya had amazing spins and good musicality but her jumps were very tiny and unstable, I would say worse than Med.

Zhenya is a complete package and a hrs worker: her success didn’t come solely out of hard work, she is also pretty darn talented! She may not be THE best in each category, but she’s good in each category and doesn’t have major flaws barring the lutz edge (which, over half of the ladies have some edge issue).

Now I’ll go back to sleep bc I woke up from a nightmare and felt the need to distract myself LOL.

 

[KiraraChin]

Are Zhenya’s jumps as good as Tuktamysheva’s? No. Are her spins as good as Lipnitskaya? No.

But the idea that she’s average and untalented is also pretty untrue. Her spins are very good, her jumps are okay at worst (2A is acceptable) and excellent at best (loop, Salchow). Her steps are good, her interpretation is good.

Most importantly, she doesn’t have a category where she just really lacks: Tuktamysheva has awesome jumps but she has well below average spins and interpretation. Lipnitskaya had amazing spins and good musicality but her jumps were very tiny and unstable, I would say worse than Med.

Zhenya is a complete package and a hrs worker: her success didn’t come solely out of hard work, she is also pretty darn talented! She may not be THE best in each category, but she’s good in each category and doesn’t have major flaws barring the lutz edge (which, over half of the ladies have some edge issue).

Now I’ll go back to sleep bc I woke up from a nightmare and felt the need to distract myself LOL.

All this, and also the fact she managed to keep her jumps post-puberty, which is an achievement in itself! Interestingly, Brian thinks what's she's shown so far is just the tip of the iceberg and she hasn't shown her full potential yet. So his opinion is opposite to Eteri's

 

[[email protected]]

She might not shoot straight to the top of the podium just by training with Orser but she also certainly will not deteriorate completely either.

She was at the top with Eteri. She lost just 1 point at OG and with new rules limiting backloading with the same performance she might have won. And she was unbeatable before her injury.

Then I don't see any value in the so-called long-term approach - I don't see any value for her to change her technique at the expense of consistency. She has been 230-240 total points skater with Eteri. What's the point - with just better technique she will become 240-250 point skater? I don't think so. First of all, are there recent examples of skaters-flutzers successfully overcoming the issue at the top of their career? Mao could not, Kaetlyn seems to not care. May be it is too difficult and too risky to invest.

Second, outside lutz she did not have eggregious issues with techique, her other jumps were fine, she more or less fixed 2A and received good GOE for it, her spins were good with all necessary levels and GOE. Once again, what's the point, to make some fans "experts" happy?

If she is shooting for 2022 with the influx of new generation skaters I would see a rather different logic. First, solidify what you already have. This is ground zero. There she has 3F-3T, 3S-3T and the ability to consistently deliver all her content with feather like skating and good connection to the music. On the negative side there is lutz which is ! not e when she delivers it cleanly (at least in the eyes of the tech panel). And the first task is to go and skate her content the way she did it before. This will bring 230+ points - the score that only Zagitova can challenge. And we don't know what her condition will be in the beginning of the season, puberty and stuff.

To work from ground zero is not to change the technique. It is to beef up the value of her jump passes. And here they should develop the strategy first - what options are worth pursuing. Going for quads? May be 4S is an idea with Zhenya's brilliant 3S. Going for 3A? Unlikely - her 2A is not good. Going for 3F-3Lo? The most obvious one, although not that many extra points, etc. I bet, that would be her game plan with Eteri - to seek new jump opportunities, not changing everything at the expense of her main asset - consistency.

 

[yoloaxel]

She was at the top with Eteri. She lost just 1 point at OG and with new rules limiting backloading with the same performance she might have won. And she was unbeatable before her injury.

Then I don't see any value in the so-called long-term approach - I don't see any value for her to change her technique at the expense of consistency. She has been 230-240 total points skater with Eteri. What's the point - with just better technique she will become 240-250 point skater? I don't think so. First of all, are there recent examples of skaters-flutzers successfully overcoming the issue at the top of their career? Mao could not, Kaetlyn seems to not care. May be it is too difficult and too risky to invest.

Second, outside lutz she did not have eggregious issues with techique, her other jumps were fine, she more or less fixed 2A and received good GOE for it, her spins were good with all necessary levels and GOE. Once again, what's the point, to make some fans "experts" happy?

I don't think she or anyone here is trying to discredit the success she had with Eteri at all. It's obvious that Eteri has done a great job with her and, as I was saying in my previous post, she is a complete package kind of skater thanks to Eteri.

I think Zhenya realized that the training method that she was following + training with so much in house competition was not going to work for her in this next quad, and since sh has trained with Eteri for such a long time she must have her reasons to believe so. She may be wrong, she may be right, that we will find out in the future. I think Eteri's endless run-throughs method that gave her her consistency, for example, could be very damaging as she grows older (and she has suffered from a stress fracture this past season, which might have influenced her decision).

I doubt Borser will try to completely rebuild her skating because, as you said, there is no such need. That doesn't mean that she has nothing to gain from training with him: when Yuzu went to Borser he was already a really good skaters, but there is no denying that he improved at TCC despite already being very good. We'll see what they do with her, but at the end of the day she has made a decision for herself by evaluating her options carefully, so we should respect that and time will tell if she made the right choice or not.

 

[Shayuki]

Well, that's something that's quite true. Jump technique really doesn't matter as long as the jumps are pretty and consistent. Tech panels really don't care how your takeoff technique is(outside of edge) and whether you pre-rotate etc. so technically, they're a bit of a waste of time to fix especially if that would hurt consistency. Indeed, the only point would be to please some fans and talking heads in general, but if the aim is to increase results, it's essentially a waste of time because the main purpose of having good jump technique is to perform the jumps consistently anyway.

I also hope that she won't sacrifice her consistency for this end goal because to me, well, it doesn't seem like an optimal use of resources. Just like skating skill improvement isn't(Her PCS isn't going any higher and her StSqs already get just about as high GOE as they'll get -> waste of time).

 

[Mathman]

But the idea that she’s average and untalented is also pretty untrue...

Not just untrue -- utterly absurd. She was the best ladies figure skater in the world over a three-year span. I wish I were as "average" in my field as Medvedeva is in hers.

 

[[email protected]]

I think Zhenya realized that the training method that she was following + training with so much in house competition was not going to work for her in this next quad, and since sh has trained with Eteri for such a long time she must have her reasons to believe so.

I doubt Borser will try to completely rebuild her skating because, as you said, there is no such need. That doesn't mean that she has nothing to gain from training with him: when Yuzu went to Borser he was already a really good skaters, but there is no denying that he improved at TCC despite already being very good.

My view on your first point is that it was not about the training methods and in house competition - it is about just one particular thing - her loss to Zagitova. We cannot imagine what psychological blow it was to Zhenya. And what answers to "why?" came to her. For example, she wanted to compete at the Nationals despite the injury - if she had won it might have meant different pcs of Zagitova later on. But she was not allowed to, etc., etc. I think she could not overcome the idea that now she has to share the ice with an Olympic champion and she suddenly became #2. And I can relate to that.

My view on your second point is exactly what I think about Medvedeva. Hanyu might have become a better skater with Orser - I can't remember when they started. But if he had not increased the difficulty over the last several years he might have lost his edge.

 

[yoloaxel]

My view on your first point is that it was not about the training methods and in house competition - it is about just one particular thing - her loss to Zagitova. We cannot imagine what psychological blow it was to Zhenya. And what answers to "why?" came to her. For example, she wanted to compete at the Nationals despite the injury - if she had won it might have meant different pcs of Zagitova later on. But she was not allowed to, etc., etc. I think she could not overcome the idea that now she has to share the ice with an Olympic champion and she suddenly became #2. And I can relate to that.

My view on your second point is exactly what I think about Medvedeva. Hanyu might have become a better skater with Orser - I can't remember when they started. But if he had not increased the difficulty over the last several years he might have lost his edge.

I honestly think losing to Alina could definitely have been a factor. She might feel like psychologically it wouldn't be healthy for her to train with her biggest rival anymore - we all know the Yagudin and Plushenko situation after all. So yeah, I think it could definitely have been a factor, I wouldn't blame her if it had been.

I do think they need to increase the difficulty and I can't see Brian being against that - just like he wasn't against Yuzuru doing it, but he also wanted Yuzu to be more stable with his 2 quads before adding new ones, which paid off because his 330 WR was done with just 4S and 4T and then he added the 4Lo and 4Lz. I think he may try to do something similar with Zhenya, and this year will be an adjustment because they need to learn to work together and to see how the new system will work for her. Then they will know what she needs to win and attempt to do it

 

[andromache]

I think maximizing her skating skills/musicality is the way to go. Sure, her PCS can’t go up from here, but she can absolutely force the judges to create more distance between her and the rest of the ladies. It’s worked for Hanyu. He really doesn’t need a quad lutz or a quad loop to beat Nathan and Shoma - it’s all in his GOE and PCS. He’s on another level than his competition, and the judges reward that accordingly.

I’m assuming though that Evgenia will become less consistent next season, mostly because her entire training situation has changed, her strategy has changed, everything has changed! Plus, we have never seen someone stay consistent post-puberty. But any mistake she makes will bring out the haters like “oh she never should’ve left Eteri, Brian ruined her, etc.”

Being the most consistent skater out there doesn’t really matter much if you’re not winning, and last season, Evgenia lost to Alina twice in a row. She will HAVE to take risks in order to beat Alina and the rest of the Eteri girls over the next four years.

 

[xeyra]

I think maximizing her skating skills/musicality is the way to go. Sure, her PCS can’t go up from here, but she can absolutely force the judges to create more distance between her and the rest of the ladies. It’s worked for Hanyu. He really doesn’t need a quad lutz or a quad loop to beat Nathan and Shoma - it’s all in his GOE and PCS. He’s on another level than his competition, and the judges reward that accordingly.

But Alina has reached Zhenya levels of GOEs/PCS. There is no room to differentiate via PCS between the two unless you think judges will suddenly score Alina *down* a few points.

 

[Shayuki]

I think maximizing her skating skills/musicality is the way to go. Sure, her PCS can’t go up from here, but she can absolutely force the judges to create more distance between her and the rest of the ladies. It’s worked for Hanyu.

... What? Alina's the one who's expected to be able to improve her performing abilities - She's still so young, after all. And how has it worked for Hanyu? Nathan Chen gets 90+ PCS. Isn't Hanyu himself proof that such a strategy really isn't worthwhile? Especially considering how much Hanyu actually improved his tech and still lost to Nathan by almost 10 points during the Olympics FS(He was lucky Nathan bombed SP).