2014 Olympics Short Dance

[snowflakebeautiful]

Unfortunately (from my point of view), the judges already have spoken with the official scoring. Why would they feel any need to "refute" what Rahkamo and Kokko tweeted? Again, please don't get me wrong. I myself wish the judges had agreed with Rahkamo and Kokko.

[And lest you wonder, we did discuss the Rahkamo and Kokko tweets many hours/pages ago (but not blaming you if you have not read back that far -- this thread has generated so much discussion).]



Home ice is a double-edged sword. More pressure as well as more support.

Yes....But, if the individual(s) can deliver (aka, not totally botch elements and have a good program), then their scores will be inflated.

 

[bixby]

Good question. I brought up each team's OD from 2010, and was surprised to see V/M badly off in their twizzles, while D/W's were beautifully synchronized. Admittedly, I am not a judge, but V/M's program seemed to be a lot of Tessa snapping her dress around, while D/W's routine had fresh and innovative moves. (Oversimplified, I know.)

I will admit to just liking Davis and White better, because they have always been gracious--even in defeat--and even when the defeat seemed questionable. I hope they have every success imaginable after their competitive career ends.

I'm with you. V/M fans are sounding more and more like sour losers!

Check their lift. It has nothing to do with the music. It was just place there that didn't even rhyme. WATCH IT YA'LL... Deep edges and what have you, but D/W were known as the technician between these teams. Ya, they're pushing the envelope alright like inventing their almost censored lift last year. Not pretty to watch at all...

 

[Mrs. P]

I have been scratching my head wondering why the wonderful Shibutani's are NOT rewarded for their SD. They are star quality and I always look forward to seeing them perform. I hope they will be rewarded for the remainder of their careers.

I think skating in an earlier group affected their PCS. I also think they just need to skate a bit bigger.

FWIW, they did finish 6th in TES. That is a great result considering their level struggles over the years.

 

[WeakAnkles]

I think skating in an earlier group affected their PCS. I also think they just need to skate a bit bigger.

FWIW, they did finish 6th in TES. That is a great result considering their level struggles over the years.

They're getting their mojo back. But yes, they need to skate bigger and they need, frankly, better programs. Or at least better choreography. I think Zoueva doesn't really know what to do with them.

 

[ice coverage]

Yes....But, if the individual(s) can deliver (aka, not totally botch elements and have a good program), then their scores will be inflated.

Then by your logic, Virtue/Moir would have won London Worlds ...

 

[NorthernDancers]

I can't say I'm terribly surprised by the marks. The "writing has been on the wall" for a couple of years now. People do not understand the difficulty of what V/M are doing, the speed with which they are moving (since they don't look like they are working as hard), and the quality. And the current ideas about ice dance, and the current judging trends do not reward the details - lines, edges, control, musicality, difficult and novel transitions, the positions of hands and feet and legs, the posture, the level of difficulty. I think there will be lots more discussion about the application of GOE and PCS with regard to ice dance, and perhaps with other disciplines as well, after this season is done. D/W are good skaters, but V/M are underscored. It was so good to see V/M happy with their skate, enjoying the experience. I hope the same for them tomorrow.

I was quite pleased with I/K today. I felt they were very good. Not 3 points away from V/M good, but that maybe has more to do with how under-scored V/M were than overscoring with I/K. I think they have some really good potential over the next quad. I'd love to see them work with someone other than Morozov so they have more appropriate music and packaging. Maybe Krylova/Carmelengo? Behind all of that "schlock", they have some really good skating. As much as I like P/B, I do think I/K were just a little bit better today.

By contrast, I felt that B/S were a mess. I don't understand their high marks. I would have switched them with W/P. I love their reaction in the KnC. They are so used to being undervalued in marks. C/L were good but not memorable or exceptional. I was pleased to see C/B do very well. So unfortunate to see P/I so low in the standings. They did have a serious error, but there isn't much difference between them and 11th, so they have the possibility of redemption tomorrow.

Interesting to read so many negative comments about the commentating on US TV. I have to give Kurt Browning and Carol Lane huge kudos for doing an incredible job in CBC. It's really worth watching if you can figure out how to get the feed. We are all getting a wonderful education in ice dance from those 2, and entertained along the way. They are explaining where the points are coming from, what's good and not so good, and so on. "Kurt's Best" segment explained really well how ice dance has changed, and how difficult the sport really is. One of the funniest comments from Kurt: "All those rules! I just want to see dance!" Carol Lane is an extremely well-respected ice dance coach in Canada (coaches Gilles/Poirier, as well as Ralph/Hill and the new Junior champions Ben/MacKeen) and Kurt needs no introduction. Hopefully people tuning in to see ice dance once every 4 years are learning a little bit about it, and hopefully this is going to help the sport of ice dance. Thanks CBC!

 

[WeakAnkles]

Good question. I brought up each team's OD from 2010, and was surprised to see V/M badly off in their twizzles, while D/W's were beautifully synchronized. Admittedly, I am not a judge, but V/M's program seemed to be a lot of Tessa snapping her dress around, while D/W's routine had fresh and innovative moves. (Oversimplified, I know.)

I will admit to just liking Davis and White better, because they have always been gracious--even in defeat--and even when the defeat seemed questionable. I hope they have every success imaginable after their competitive career ends.

A while ago we had a thread about skating results that ticked people off. I didn't respond to it at the time, but that was what I would have said: the OD at Vancouver. The Bollywood program is probably one of the 2 or 3 BEST programs Zoueva's ever done, it was skated beautifully and it should have won. Voir still deserved the gold medal overall, but Marlie DEFINITELY won that portion of the competition.

And sorry, but I completely disagree about home field advantage. There are just TOO MANY examples of countries/teams/individuals who have gotten a big performance boost from skating at home as compared to skating elsewhere. And that seems to me pretty true across a huge variety of sports. Russia is already doing it in Sochi as compared to Vancouver. I'd bet hard currency that the performance boost outweighs the ones who succumbed to hometown pressure. Hard currency (and I am not a gambling man!).

 

[snowflakebeautiful]

Then by your logic, Virtue/Moir would have won London Worlds ...

I'm sorry...I should've clarified. I feel like this has more application when it comes to the Olympics. At least, that's where I have noticed the margins and over/underscoring to be so much bigger and more obvious.

And of course, there are exceptions. Initially, I was just pointing out that there is typically a home-country advantage; and the discussion was about the Olympics.

 

[L_Canada]

I'm with you. V/M fans are sounding more and more like sour losers!

Check their lift. It has nothing to do with the music. It was just place there that didn't even rhyme. WATCH IT YA'LL... Deep edges and what have you, but D/W were known as the technician between these teams. Ya, they're pushing the envelope alright like inventing their almost censored lift last year. Not pretty to watch at all...

When have V/M not been gracious in defeat? I think both teams have handled their success and defeat wonderfully. V/M fans for the most part do not have sour grapes, they are already Olympic and World Champions, I think most fans expect them to be 2nd this year. Either way they have had an amazing career.

 

[Mrs. P]

They're getting their mojo back. But yes, they need to skate bigger and they need, frankly, better programs. Or at least better choreography. I think Zoueva doesn't really know what to do with them.

Maia is very demure, a clear introvert. She's the exact opposite of Madision Chock. I think the challenge for her is learning to stand out. She doesn't need to be a diva, but I hope she can learn to be more bombastic in her expression.

I do think the Michael Jackson FD, is helping her do that to some extent. But there's a lot of room (and opportunity) for growth.

I also think Alex needs to do a better job presenting her. He is SO extroverted and you can tell he loves to perform, but I think sometime he overshadows Maia, which isn't a great thing in ID.

ETA: P.S. I realize I said I wasn't going to be in this thread...but I can't help but want to answer questions.

 

[ice coverage]

deleted

 

[WeakAnkles]

Maia is very demure, a clear introvert. She's the exact opposite of Madision Chock. I think the challenge for her is learning to stand out. She doesn't need to be a diva, but I hope she can learn to be more bombastic in her expression.

I do think the Michael Jackson FD, is helping her do that to some extent. But there's a lot of room (and opportunity) for growth.

I also think Alex needs to do a better job presenting her. He is SO extroverted and you can tell he loves to perform, but I think sometime he overshadows Maia, which isn't a great thing in ID.

ETA: P.S. I realize I said I wasn't going to be in this thread...but I can't help but want to answer questions.

Perhaps the Michael Jackson FD will be their Marlie tango--a program that isn't exactly a good fit but teaches them plenty about, as Scott Hamilton famously put it, The Power of the Performance. I really thought this SD was the best thing they've skated since their bronze. And it's a shame that it seems everyone still holds that bronze against them--as if it were their fault that P/B screwed up and lost it.

I'd love for them to do something REALLY left-field next season, like say John Adams The Chairman Dances (which actually began as a variation on a foxtrot) or one of the Philip Glass Dansepieces or one of Duke Ellington's jazz concerto pieces. The first year of a quad cycle is always a good time not only to break out of a mold but to stomp it into little pieces!

 

[CocoChanel]

Unfortunately (from my point of view), the judges already have spoken with the official scoring. Why would they feel any need to "refute" what Rahkamo and Kokko tweeted?

I think someone "official" needs to clarify the marks for V/M and why they were marked down just because of the media aspect. If it becomes too much of an issue, then the IOC might figure this is the last straw and simply remove ice dance from the Olympics. I think they were close to doing that back in 1998?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I'm with you. V/M fans are sounding more and more like sour losers!

Check their lift. It has nothing to do with the music. It was just place there that didn't even rhyme. WATCH IT YA'LL... Deep edges and what have you, but D/W were known as the technician between these teams. Ya, they're pushing the envelope alright like inventing their almost censored lift last year. Not pretty to watch at all...

Their SD lift (D/W) was not as difficult as others though. She was never inverted, there was no change in position, and his hand was holding up her leg to maintain the split. It was very quickly rotated and looked clean, but any elite ice dance team with a flexible woman that can do the splits could probably execute that lift (likely not as well though).

 

[caitie]

When have V/M not been gracious in defeat?

The 2011 GPF Final and 2012 WTT. It's just Scott, though. He has that temper and shoots off at the mouth sometimes. Tessa is lovely always. <3

Good points about the Shibs, Mrs. P. I really agree that Alex overshadows Maia, hopefully she can emerge from her shell a bit. I hope Marina can do better by them re: choreography/program concepts once her top teams retire. The MJ free dance is really fun, though.

 

[hyperinflation]

When have V/M not been gracious in defeat?

how can you forget "what a piss off"-gate

he gets a bad rap though, if you watch the video of him saying it, he's kind of laughing

edit: i don't remember what happened at wtt though, unless it was him saying he hated the event when he didn't think he was still on camera. which.....whatever

 

[Mrs. P]

Watching the SD on NBC and they just showed Jason and Polina taking selfies in the stands. Too cute.

Good points about the Shibs, Mrs. P. I really agree that Alex overshadows Maia, hopefully she can emerge from her shell a bit. I hope Marina can do better by them re: choreography/program concepts once her top teams retire. The MJ free dance is really fun, though.

Perhaps the Michael Jackson FD will be their Marlie tango--a program that isn't exactly a good fit but teaches them plenty about, as Scott Hamilton famously put it, The Power of the Performance. I really thought this SD was the best thing they've skated since their bronze. And it's a shame that it seems everyone still holds that bronze against them--as if it were their fault that P/B screwed up and lost it.

I'd love for them to do something REALLY left-field next season, like say John Adams The Chairman Dances (which actually began as a variation on a foxtrot) or one of the Philip Glass Dansepieces or one of Duke Ellington's jazz concerto pieces. The first year of a quad cycle is always a good time not only to break out of a mold but to stomp it into little pieces!

Here's the thing, Meryl seems quite reserved and introverted. In fact Maia and Meryl have very similar personalities, which probably why they get a long while Alex and Charlie are the goofballs of the their pairs.

So the perception of a lack of chemistry between Meryl and Charlie probably isn't so much that there wasn't so much the fact they lack chemistry but perhaps that it wasn't well expressed on Meryl's part.

But I think Meryl has learned to perform, thanks to some great programs that forced Meryl to perform.

I'm hoping maybe something like that will happen with Maia. And yes, they get some interesting programs that help her get there.

 

[Ryan O]

Thoughts on some of the teams:

V&M - This was the best I have seen them skate their SD this year. Tessa seemed more relaxed than she has been in a while, and did not struggle in the twizzles as she has on a couple of other occasions. I thought they would be a bit closer to D&W.

D&W - Not surprising that they were first considering their recent scores vs. V&M over the past 2 years, but I thought they would maybe be only 1 point ahead instead of 2.

I&K - I agreed with Kurt B. & Carol L. that they were more lyrical and less frantic than B&S and was glad that politics didn't keep B&S ahead since I&K appeared more deserving of the higher score today.

W&P - They clearly had a bit of a unison/traveling issue during the twizzles (something which happened in their Nationals LP in 2010 and cost them a trip to the last Olympics), but the judges were tougher on them than I thought they would be, and I don't think many people expected them to be 7th and out of the final group in the FD. They looked visibly upset with their marks.

P&I - I don't want to be too hard on them, but as one of those who felt G&P should have had the 3rd Dance spot to the Olympics, I think their 18th place in the SD is a reminder that they still struggle with consistency and mental focus during competition. Luckily for them they managed to skate cleanly at Canadians and get that 3rd spot. But if they don't get back on track in the FD, they may fall behind G&P again since G&P just scored a SB at 4 Continents and won the silver.

 

[figuristka]

V/M skated beautifully and i don't understand why they lost a level in the finnstep. Its their best performance this season. As said before they have so many layers to their skating and so much detail, character and expression in the way they relate to each other. A finnish article http://www.aamulehti.fi/Urheilu/119...maksoiko+finnstep+kanadalaisille+kullan+.html explains Rahkamo was to disagree with the jury. Petri Kokko ‏@coccco 13h
Hope @Virtue_Moir wins. Americans timing off in the #finnstep and restrained even otherwise.Petri Kokko ‏@coccco 13 hrs
I don't understand the judging in #icedancing. @Virtue_Moir should be leading in my honest opinion. #finnstep
Petri Kokko ‏@coccco 11 hrs
@kwanette Timing, crispness and character. Davis and White were brilliant in the team event, but not tonight.

D/W have speed, lightness in their skating and make it look easy but don't see why this elevates them above V/M who have more depth and dancing ability, as well as better timming in this.I/K have wonderful basic skating and i always thought they should have been above the other russsian's long ago. Easier dance so i think their marks were too high but the quality is there. I don't think they should be so close with V/M. The French P/B performed great and its right they are right next to I/K. Shame W/P lost levels as on the twizzles but their marks were abit harsh. I would have still had them as well as C/L above B/S who just are too wild and not graceful enough.Makes me frustrated how V/M skated like that and lost that level. I was not accepting before that there is some kind of judging scandal but sadly the drop in level of their finnstep when the inventors of the dance who were World medalist themselves say they skated it better and the timming was off for D/W. Makes it rather suspicious.Its very sad V/M have only a slight slight chance at the Gold as its pre determined the wanted winners are D/W with I/K on the podium. I do love I/K and often thought they were not rewarded, but with the sudden change in their marks its looking pre determined.

 

[peg]

I'll now hide with that I consider Davis/White choices of music and choreos as simply uninspired and carried on by technical abilities. And please notice, D/W dear ubers - according to their case I can easily split 2 things separately - I admire their SKATE which means technique but their DANCE are not-so-much-dance...

This is exactly how I feel. I don't necessarily see their skate as 'clinical' as there is some level of expression. But when I watch D/W, I feel like I am watching skilled skaters doing well-executed tricks on the ice. When I watch V/M, I feel like I am watching dancers who happen to be on skates. They don't skate - they glide. And the nuances of their performance are astounding - very tilt of the head means something, the expressiveness of Tessa's hands and fingers.... not to mention the lines, the extension, the carriage. To me D/W don't quite have those qualities, and that detracts from their performance. Though I will admit that they have improved in that regard, and today's OD had that in parts. But it' not sustained, and so while I can appreciate their skill, they don't mesmerize me or make me feel anything.

And I get that this is a sport, and therefore technical skill is important. But this is also dance, and it seems to me like right now, the dance elements are not getting suffciently credited. It's not like Tessa and Scott don't have skill and difficulty - they may have lost a point on one of their levels, but to me, those other qualities they exhibit should have more than made up for that point. The fact that D/W got higher PCS really leaves me scratching my head.