Identification of Jumps? | Golden Skate

Identification of Jumps?

Caliph2002

Spectator
Joined
Mar 12, 2014
Hello everyone, I am new to this forum, and I am not too well acquainted with figure skating technique.
I'm having some trouble identifying salchow and loop from each other. I know salchow takes off from left inside edge and loop right outside edge, but can you tell me some common connective steps preceding the jump? What's the best way to identify?
When skaters do the salchow I see the right leg touch the ice immediately before the jump, and I confuse this with the loop since the right leg takes off for a loop.
 

Interspectator

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
I find that the easiest way to distinguish a loop jump is that just before take-off, it looks as if the skater has his/her legs crossed and bends both legs together in a slight 'sitting down' position.
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Country
Australia
The Salchow is also usually (not always, but usually) preceded by a quite swingy three-turn, whereas the loop tends to do the three-turn (or other turn) and stop-then-jump.

If that made any sense at all...
 

Vanshilar

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 24, 2014
Yeah salchow -> legs are apart just before the jump, while loop -> legs are crossed just before.

There's a variety of videos on Youtube where you can see the different jumps and compare them, this is one that shows the salchow and then the loop right after (skip to 4:35 or so):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu81i6vufWA

If I understand the mechanics correctly, the difference stems from that for a salchow, taking off from the left inside edge, the right leg helps generate the rotation, which is why it's out, while for a loop, the rotation comes more from the body winding up, and hence the left leg stays crossed in front of the right (takeoff) leg. I'm sure there's a physics reason why skaters don't kick out with the left leg to aid rotation in a loop (martial artists sort of kick out when doing a tornado kick, which is roughly similar -- spin counterclockwise, take off from right foot), the way the free leg is used to aid rotation in a salchow; I just don't know what it is.
 

jennyanydots

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 1, 2013
If skaters use traditional entrances the jumps are easy enough to identify, that is forward three-turn for the salchow and two-foot backward glide for the loop. Skaters also do salchows from a backward outside three turn-forward inside Mohawk or directly from a forward inside Mohawk. Another common loop entry is a forward inside three turn or a series of turns. More creative entrances can be trickier to identify. You have to look at which foot is supporting the skater's weight on take off. On the salchow some skaters do brush the free foot down on the ice just before taking off but their weight is still on the other foot. Another thing is on the salchow there is a transfer of weight from one axis to the other in the air (left-right or right-left), whereas on the loop the skater's axis will stay constant. That inherently makes the jumps look different as well but it might be more difficult for the casual viewer to grasp.
 

nimi

Medalist
Joined
Apr 7, 2014
Personally, I've found that practicing FS jumps off ice helps me to identify them. When it comes to loop and sal, the take off edge kinda gets lost in translation, but the transfer of weight in salchow that jennyanydots mentioned is still very obvious. The swinging free leg in sal really helps you to gain rotational momentum, whereas loop requires more thigh muscle effort (hence the "sitting down and springing up" in takeoff), and it takes me some serious concentration and effort to get even one full rotation when performing my little living room floor loop. :p
 

trouble77

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
Hello everyone, I am new to this forum, and I am not too well acquainted with figure skating technique.
I'm having some trouble identifying salchow and loop from each other. I know salchow takes off from left inside edge and loop right outside edge, but can you tell me some common connective steps preceding the jump? What's the best way to identify?
When skaters do the salchow I see the right leg touch the ice immediately before the jump, and I confuse this with the loop since the right leg takes off for a loop.

Hi and welcome,

this video can either help you to recognize the loop, or confuse you even more, but I would still give it a try. The loop is the first jump explained. I believe this video was created for people who didn't really understand figure skating jargon, but I remember showing this vid to my friends pre-Vancouver, because they couldnt's understand my explanation on edges etc, and they managed to learn something.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWayuvHGILU
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
The main thing that distinguishes these two jumps is that the loop takes off from the same foot (and same edge) that it lands on, and the salchow changes feet in the air (hence the weight shift mentioned above).

Don't get too hung up on right and left, because some skaters jump in the opposite direction.

All the suggestions offered above about what to look for in the jump approaches and the free leg positions, etc., should be helpful.

But if you see a double or triple edge jump that took off backward and wasn't obvious or standard in its setup or free leg position, the main way to answer which jump it was is to check whether it took off from the landing foot or the other foot.

[If it was a single jump by a high-level skater, it might have been a walley, which you don't need to worry about.]
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Jumps with weight transfer from take off to landing:
Axel, Sal, toe loop

Jumps with no transition of weight:
Loop, flip, Lutz
 

jkun

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 16, 2013
Loop: creates rotation by rotating around the right leg. Usually more vertical height.

Salchow: creates rotation using the free, swinging right leg, but takes off of left. I always thought the salchow was the most awkward jump..
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Toe loop the skater rotates toward the picking foot, flip the skater rotates away from the picking foot.
 

pointyourtoe

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
This post was edited because I answered my own question! I finally realize what people mean about flutzing...I had always been looking at the wrong foot! :laugh:

After watching skating for years, I can identify the jumps for the most part, like a loop takes off with the legs crossed, the salchow has the leg swinging in from a 3 turn, a lutz often has a long backwards glide into the takeoff

Toe loop the skater rotates toward the picking foot, flip the skater rotates away from the picking foot.

Am I deluded because it always seems to me like with the flip, the skater is actually propelling themselves off from just the toe pick, whereas with the toe loop some skaters seem to use more of the blade (almost the entire blade, rather than just the pick)?
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I would say the other way around... a toe loop skaters tend to vault off the toe a lot more apparently than a flip (where the picking foot crosses behind the other foot sooner).
 

Krunchii

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 27, 2014
For loop the legs are usually crossed before take off
Salchow the skaters are kind of bow legged before take off
Axel is a forward take off
Toe loop you pick into the ice with your left foot, for Flip and Lutz, they pick with the right foot and then I look at the edge before take off, Flip is inside edge, Lutz is outside edge (If the Flip has a wrong edge it is a Lip, if the Lutz has a wrong edge it's a Flutz)
For combinations, the second jump is a toe loop if they pick the ice, if they don't then it's a loop

Here's an excellent gif guide I found on tumblr
http://eggplantgifs.tumblr.com/post/79014570375/figure-skating-elements-solo-jumps-guide-to
And here's one for combinations
http://eggplantgifs.tumblr.com/post/79099304504/figure-skating-elements-triple-triple

Both have good explanations so I suggest you take a look
 

pointyourtoe

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
I would say the other way around... a toe loop skaters tend to vault off the toe a lot more apparently than a flip (where the picking foot crosses behind the other foot sooner).

I think I was confusing the picking foot with the other foot that comes forward during the setup..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F68ZUxutKE8#t=5m50s (slow mo replay at 5:50 of Kwan's 3t-3t)
Notice how in the setup, she swings her right foot forward first for a 3turn..but as you guys said, the 3t actually picks off with the left foot..but because of the right foot swinging forward before that it confused me thinking it was the picking foot
 

jennyanydots

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 1, 2013
How do some skaters both lip and flutz if they are obviously capable of taking off on either edge?

Some skaters rock on their edges on the lutz take-off, like some of the Russian girls who flutz. It's supposed to help get them on the outside edge just before take off although skaters who do it usually still end up flutzing. It does help to disguise it better. I assume that unstable wobbly edge technique carries over the the flip. Either that or it just reflects poor edge control in general.
 

Sabrina

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
What I don't understand is, if you want to do a Lutz and you change the edge from outside to inside, that is called Flutz, but that is actually a correct Flip. The same goes for wrong edge Flip, which should count as a Lutz. Are other real differences between the 2 jumps? As far as I know it is all about the inside/outside edge. Why there is a deduction for the edge?
 
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