Kaitlin Hawayek & Jean-Luc Baker | Page 22 | Golden Skate

Kaitlin Hawayek & Jean-Luc Baker

slider11

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Jan 12, 2014
I mean, H/B were over 20 points behind H/D at Worlds last year too, so I'm not sure why that number itself is so surprising. If we want to talk about Fear/Gibson, then here's a little breakdown of the FD:

PCS - H/B won SS and TR, F/G won PE, CO and IN. That makes sense, though I would give H/B a bigger gap for SS especially.

BV - H/B were 0.75 higher, because they have level 3 on the step sequence while F/G had level 2. All the other levels were the same.

GOE - H/B got 18.15 points in GOE, and F/G got 21.98. Let's look by element:

One foot steps - 0.2 more for H/B
Midline/Circular steps - 0.14 more for H/B
Spin - 0.16 more for H/B

Solo lift - same for both

Twizzles - 0.41 more for F/G
Combo lifts - 1.44 more for F/G
Character step - 0.47 more for F/G
Choreo slide - 0.83 more for F/G
3rd choreo element (spin for H/B, lift for F/G) - 1.18 more for F/G

So the big difference is in the lifts and the choreo elements (especially the choreo lift). H/B have never had the most effortless lifts, from what I remember, probably in part due to their height difference. But also, Lewis is a really, really great lifter. Their combo lift is insanely cool and really difficult and well-executed. So they are not easy to match there.

I haven't gone back to watch, to really analyze each element, so I can't be super specific. But I have seen some people saying that the FD is a bit dense. That was also said about V/M's original Moulin Rouge, and they had to rework it to give themselves more room to breathe and to show off the quality of their elements and skating. That might help H/B earn more on the steps and in SS. And adding a bit more lightness and humour to the program might help them make the choreo elements just that bit more special.

I do think it's really important for H/B to maximize points on the steps and things, since they don't get the most points on the lifts, which are worth a lot.

I think their RD is really good, and the FD has a lot of potential, but it does need to be reworked a bit - and they need a clearer concept of the program, imo. Currently it's kind of convoluted, and I think that comes through.

Thank you! Maybe you should have a job on the Olympic Channel doing ice dance analysis! Or at least be on payroll of the Montreal school!
 

Bluediamonds09

Medalist
Joined
Sep 8, 2016
I’m new to ice dance and don’t understand the rules, but I liked their free dance when I saw them perform it at a Challenger. (Is it paso? Tango? I know it’s Spanish but I don’t know the genre.) Did they lose levels on some things to be left off the podium at Skate Canada?
Also, does anyone have a link to their Skate Canada free dance, it’s blocked on YouTube.
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
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Thank you! Maybe you should have a job on the Olympic Channel doing ice dance analysis! Or at least be on payroll of the Montreal school!

You know I really like Tanith and at least she doesn't usually talk during the performances, but she was very ..uninformative.
 

moonvine

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I mean, H/B were over 20 points behind H/D at Worlds last year too, so I'm not sure why that number itself is so surprising. If we want to talk about Fear/Gibson, then here's a little breakdown of the FD:

PCS - H/B won SS and TR, F/G won PE, CO and IN. That makes sense, though I would give H/B a bigger gap for SS especially.

BV - H/B were 0.75 higher, because they have level 3 on the step sequence while F/G had level 2. All the other levels were the same.

GOE - H/B got 18.15 points in GOE, and F/G got 21.98. Let's look by element:

One foot steps - 0.2 more for H/B
Midline/Circular steps - 0.14 more for H/B
Spin - 0.16 more for H/B

Solo lift - same for both

Twizzles - 0.41 more for F/G
Combo lifts - 1.44 more for F/G
Character step - 0.47 more for F/G
Choreo slide - 0.83 more for F/G
3rd choreo element (spin for H/B, lift for F/G) - 1.18 more for F/G

So the big difference is in the lifts and the choreo elements (especially the choreo lift). H/B have never had the most effortless lifts, from what I remember, probably in part due to their height difference. But also, Lewis is a really, really great lifter. Their combo lift is insanely cool and really difficult and well-executed. So they are not easy to match there.

I haven't gone back to watch, to really analyze each element, so I can't be super specific. But I have seen some people saying that the FD is a bit dense. That was also said about V/M's original Moulin Rouge, and they had to rework it to give themselves more room to breathe and to show off the quality of their elements and skating. That might help H/B earn more on the steps and in SS. And adding a bit more lightness and humour to the program might help them make the choreo elements just that bit more special.

I do think it's really important for H/B to maximize points on the steps and things, since they don't get the most points on the lifts, which are worth a lot.

I think their RD is really good, and the FD has a lot of potential, but it does need to be reworked a bit - and they need a clearer concept of the program, imo. Currently it's kind of convoluted, and I think that comes through.

Thank you SO MUCH. I've had multiple people try to explain it to me and I failed to understand. But yes they were 20 points behind H/D at Worlds, but not Paul and Piper that i know of. Usually when I ask I get told something like "the judges are trying to send them a message." For example, H/D were apparently sent a message at Skate America, and didn't pay attention to it, and thus got sent a "strong message" by finishing behind Piper and Paul. Not that it matters, as they're going to the GPF and I guess have time to figure out all these subliminal messages. The other thing I hear is that "this is the year" that C/P "finally" overtake H/B as the number three US Team. Like there's nothing H/B can do about it and it is set in stone. It is very odd. I don't hear anything like that in other disciplines. For instance, I never hear the judges are "sending a message" to Nathan and Hanyu - Nathan and Hanyu send messages to each other. It just feels all political and very icky. I love H/B's rhythm dance, even though rhythm dance isn't their strong suit.
You're not going to find that free dance (in my opinion) becoming less muddled because the concept is muddled, mixes up two very different time periods, and makes no sense to begin with. I still want them to leave the coaching situation they are in, but obviously I'm not there and don't pay their training bills, so... Last year they won a gold and came in 4th, and made the GPF. Selfishly I want to see them skate more, and I want them to be happy, and as I said they did not look happy and can't be happy at taking such a huge step back.
 

oly2018

Final Flight
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Feb 13, 2018
Thank you SO MUCH. I've had multiple people try to explain it to me and I failed to understand. But yes they were 20 points behind H/D at Worlds, but not Paul and Piper that i know of. Usually when I ask I get told something like "the judges are trying to send them a message." For example, H/D were apparently sent a message at Skate America, and didn't pay attention to it, and thus got sent a "strong message" by finishing behind Piper and Paul. Not that it matters, as they're going to the GPF and I guess have time to figure out all these subliminal messages. The other thing I hear is that "this is the year" that C/P "finally" overtake H/B as the number three US Team. Like there's nothing H/B can do about it and it is set in stone. It is very odd. I don't hear anything like that in other disciplines. For instance, I never hear the judges are "sending a message" to Nathan and Hanyu - Nathan and Hanyu send messages to each other. It just feels all political and very icky. I love H/B's rhythm dance, even though rhythm dance isn't their strong suit.
You're not going to find that free dance (in my opinion) becoming less muddled because the concept is muddled, mixes up two very different time periods, and makes no sense to begin with. I still want them to leave the coaching situation they are in, but obviously I'm not there and don't pay their training bills, so... Last year they won a gold and came in 4th, and made the GPF. Selfishly I want to see them skate more, and I want them to be happy, and as I said they did not look happy and can't be happy at taking such a huge step back.

Unfortunately, the politics of ice dance lives on. It can't be as obvious in any other discipline because in ice dance, there are rarely major mistakes. Major mistakes, like dropping levels, don't always mean that much in ice dance because teams can be saved by GOE. Unfortunately, that means personal preferences become a huge factor in how teams are viewed. I figured H/B were in trouble last year when they were scored much closer to the B teams than they were H/D and C/B by home judges.
 

SnowWhite

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One other thing I've seen a couple of people say, is that they are lacking in speed. Speed and ice coverage is often one of the things that sets the top couples apart from the rest. I haven't payed a ton of attention to it so far this season, and it's not always easy to judge when you don't see them live. So I can't judge how true that is, but it could be part of the issue and could impact GOE on some stuff and the SS mark as well. At SC, H/B skated after H/D in the RD and G/P in the FD, and skating after the top teams may have made any lack of speed stand out more.

As for the coaching, they have seemed to absolutely love being in Montreal at Gadbois so far. Now, that may change - there are a lot of teams there around the same tier, and they've lost to two of them so far. Though FB/S are now the Canadian #2 team, which helps politically, and last season they were only just behind H/B when H/B had the advantage of having competed the whole season and doing the GPF while FB/S had been sitting out, so that one isn't as surprising. But if they are still happy there, that is pretty important. I do think Montreal's been good for Kaitlin especially - she's improved and skates with much more confidence. And they've seemed a bit less prone to random errors lately.

I don't really see them with Pasquale and Igor. There's Marina down in Florida, and maybe Carol Lane and Juris Razgulajevs in Toronto if she was open to it. And WISA, which definitely has good tech, but they aren't the best at packaging imo, and they already have McNamara/Carpenter and Green/Parsons. No one else in NA has top teams, so you'd be taking a risk to find out if they could give you what you need (both technical and packaging). There's also a few options in Europe, but that would be a pretty huge move.

They could look at coaches with great junior teams if they want something new. These are the coaches in North America with teams who won a JGP medal this season: Igor, Gadbois, Carol Lane, Matteo Zanni and Collin Brubaker, and Andrew Hallam.

Zanni and Brubacker are based in Chicago, and work with Oleg Epstein. They coach the young Czech team Taschlerova/Taschler. They are both fairly young (30, 32) former ice dancers. I don't know a lot about their coaching operation, but I believe Zanni just moved this summer from Europe.

Andrew Hallam coaches at The Cricket Club in Toronto. He's the main ice dance coach there, but the dance teams also work with Tracy Wilson. Romain from Gadbois often does the choreo for their teams, but they use other people too. Andrew coaches D'Alessandro/Waddell, McIsaac/Circelli and the new Japanese team Yoshida/Nishiyama. I don't know of any senior teams he's coached. I generally like all the programs for their junior teams.
 

dorispulaski

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I think they might do well at TCC with Hallam & Tracy Wilson. They are known for good skating drills, which would help. And the TCC repackaging of Jason Brown was great. Jean Luc could use some help there. Plus Tracy was about the same size as Robert McCall, so she should have a good grasp of their problems with being the same size in lifts.

As to Marina, she has teo senior teams, Reed & Ambrulevicius LTU and Souquet & Wagret. Both teams are at IdF this week. Btw, the choreographers are listed as Zueva & Scali.
 
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slider11

Medalist
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
I am hoping that Skate Canada was a bit of an aberration and Cup of China will produce stronger scores in the FD. In Canada, they hit a hot team who skated extremely well and a quirky judge panel. They missed third by less than a point. They are still a top 10 team in the World in my book. Now go get it!
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
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Unfortunately, the politics of ice dance lives on. It can't be as obvious in any other discipline because in ice dance, there are rarely major mistakes. Major mistakes, like dropping levels, don't always mean that much in ice dance because teams can be saved by GOE. Unfortunately, that means personal preferences become a huge factor in how teams are viewed. I figured H/B were in trouble last year when they were scored much closer to the B teams than they were H/D and C/B by home judges.

See..this is kind of what drives me nuts. I hear a lot of "the writing is on the wall," "they are in trouble," "this does not bode well." I mean...I don't think I hear that in any other skating discipline and perhaps not in any other sports. So if they don't score well, why not go home and work on whatever their issues were? Last year they won a gold GP medal and made the GPF. This year from what I understand they will be very lucky to get a bronze in their one remaining GP event and people are wondering when the "inevitable" time will be when C/P passes them as the 3rd place US team. If they aren't going to be happy getting 4th at Nationals and fighting it out for bronze at GP events, why not hang up their skates?
 

oly2018

Final Flight
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Feb 13, 2018
See..this is kind of what drives me nuts. I hear a lot of "the writing is on the wall," "they are in trouble," "this does not bode well." I mean...I don't think I hear that in any other skating discipline and perhaps not in any other sports. So if they don't score well, why not go home and work on whatever their issues were? Last year they won a gold GP medal and made the GPF. This year from what I understand they will be very lucky to get a bronze in their one remaining GP event and people are wondering when the "inevitable" time will be when C/P passes them as the 3rd place US team. If they aren't going to be happy getting 4th at Nationals and fighting it out for bronze at GP events, why not hang up their skates?

It's definitely frustrating and I think everyone has liked an ice dance team this has happened to. Ice dance is just so different from the other disciplines. They had some technical issues here, but no more than the Brits. What it came down to was elements and GOE. The judges just may not like their free. I would argue program choice matters more in ice dance than in other disciplines. They know ice dance is political, I think going to Gadbois may have even been a political choice, but there have always been whispers about what their ceiling would be because of their height difference. I definitely preferred their material pre-Gadbois, but that comes down to personal preference.
 

SnowWhite

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I think they might do well at TCC with Hallam & Tracy Wilson. They are known for good skating drills, which would help. And the TCC repackaging of Jason Brown was great. Jean Luc could use some help there. Plus Tracy was about the same size as Robert McCall, so she should have a good grasp of their problems with being the same size in lifts.

As to Marina, she has teo senior teams, Reed & Ambrulevicius LTU and Souquet & Wagret. Both teams are at IdF this week. Btw, the choreographers are listed as Zueva & Scali.

She's listed as a coach for Reed/Ambrulevicius, but their training locations are listed as Germany and Lithuania, and from what I've heard it sounds like their European coaches are their main ones now (don't know for sure). Wagret/Souquet listed their training location as Florida, so they seem to be there full time.

I am curious about seeing a good senior team at TCC. I think it'll happen eventually with one of the junior teams moving up, but it would be cool to see someone move there as a senior.
 

Colonel Green

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Last year they won a gold GP medal and made the GPF. This year from what I understand they will be very lucky to get a bronze in their one remaining GP event and people are wondering when the "inevitable" time will be when C/P passes them as the 3rd place US team. If they aren't going to be happy getting 4th at Nationals and fighting it out for bronze at GP events, why not hang up their skates?
As an aside, making the Grand Prix Final (and winning events) has as much to do with getting favourable assignments as anything else, and Kaitlin & Jean-Luc got very fortunate last year with how NHK worked out.

That aside, anybody who chooses to compete in dance (or skating in general, but especially dance) knows the "what have you done for me lately?" aspect of the sport, and I'm sure they want to go to the Olympics. And, to be clear, it's not like it's over, by any means. The near-loss to Carreira/Ponomarenko at Nebelhorn almost made it look like the fight was over before it started, but they've done better since and C/P have done worse.

But in a jam-packed national field like the US, holding the default bronze medal position is always going to be perilous. Any of the teams gunning for the podium (and the 4CC/Worlds/Olympic berths) are going to have to move past them first.
 

Kitt

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5th after the Rhythm Dance at Cup of China! I'm losing hope.....
 

Wilhelmina

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It breaks my heart to see them struggling, but I don't think this FD really plays to their strengths. Those fussy costumes cover up their beautiful lines. And, while Kaitlin serves excellent diva face, I don't think dramatic dances are actually their forte. This feels heavy and labored.

I saw them live at Skate America a few years ago and was blown away by how lightly they moved on the ice. I'm not seeing that this season. As a pair they have a lovely fey, elfin quality to them. I would love to see them dance as Shakespearean fairies or something. Something that shows off their lines, their sense of fun, and cuts back on the drama so they can concentrate on precision and speed.
 

slider11

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Jan 12, 2014
It breaks my heart to see them struggling, but I don't think this FD really plays to their strengths. Those fussy costumes cover up their beautiful lines. And, while Kaitlin serves excellent diva face, I don't think dramatic dances are actually their forte. This feels heavy and labored.

I saw them live at Skate America a few years ago and was blown away by how lightly they moved on the ice. I'm not seeing that this season. As a pair they have a lovely fey, elfin quality to them. I would love to see them dance as Shakespearean fairies or something. Something that shows off their lines, their sense of fun, and cuts back on the drama so they can concentrate on precision and speed.

Very insightful, Wilhemina! I am perplexed, too, as to their recent decline in scores. As much as I agree that the FD is innovative, I agree that the heaviness of Kaitlin's costume seems to weigh down the performance. She does not have the height to enhance that type of skirt. It would be nice if a costume change would fix things. For some reason the tech specialists in the two GP events have been tough on their edging and patterns - usually an area they do well at. And the judges are definitely split with their GOEs. Patrice Lauzon looked perturbed, too, at the end of the Cup China. I couldn't tell if he is frustrated with his skaters or with the judging. With all the teams they juggle in Montreal this is one of the risks H/B in being little fish in a big pond. How much time/effort will the Gadbois team put into fixing their performances?
 

elbkup

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I am in agreement with Wilhemenia and slider 11 .. it is especially frustrating when you KNOW in your heart of hearts that they are capable of such exquisite performances. Watched their RD & FD last night on the Olympic Channel (recorded) with Tanith & Ben Agosto commenting... Ben was at a loss to explain their low scores...

I saw their show performance of Visions of Emeralds: a tribute to Balanchine on TV a long while ago but had no luck finding an Internet link at the time... found this below today however from the Boston DANCE Alliance ... not sure if the Nov 30 date is this year??? BUT, cranky, this is what they should be doing..

https://www.bostondancealliance.org/bda_event/visions-of-emeralds-an-homage-to-mr-balanchine/

IMG_0110.jpg
 

WeakAnkles

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It breaks my heart to see them struggling, but I don't think this FD really plays to their strengths. Those fussy costumes cover up their beautiful lines. And, while Kaitlin serves excellent diva face, I don't think dramatic dances are actually their forte. This feels heavy and labored.

I saw them live at Skate America a few years ago and was blown away by how lightly they moved on the ice. I'm not seeing that this season. As a pair they have a lovely fey, elfin quality to them. I would love to see them dance as Shakespearean fairies or something. Something that shows off their lines, their sense of fun, and cuts back on the drama so they can concentrate on precision and speed.


Getting rid of the costuming and the convoluted storyline of the FD would go a long long long way. Both are not illuminating but obscuring what is potentially one of the strongest features of that dance: their quirky cat and mouse relationship. And they need to clear up the intent. Right now it's six of one thing AND half a dozen of the other. If they want to make it a more comedic/parody number, they need to emphasize that. If they want to make it more traditional in feeling, they need to play up the drama more. Personally, I'd go for the drama--comedy is always a harder sell in the FD than parody/comedy. I suspect that lack of clear intent is affecting their PCS, if not their GOEs.

Wilhelmina, do yourself a favor and go back and watch their junior worlds performances. I have never ever understood why Krylova or Montreal have not explored a more traditional, British-ballroom-style for a FD. Jean-Luc has said in interviews that he loves that style, and there is a movement just really starting to get some serious traction away from the All Lyrical Lyricism All The Time to more traditional styles. There is MUCH room for innovation within that tradition--and I believe it would not only play to their strengths, but stand out stylistically right now.
 

elbkup

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^^ Spot on analysis as usual WeakAnkles.. totally agree. Emeralds was a truly exquisite dance.. they never looked more beautiful or wonderful.. and, she is the only skater today, I think, that can shine in that color with her pale skin tone, dark hair and lovely eyes.. NOT those dusted down morbid gray neutrals she is saddled with, especially in the RD. Night Fever was especially colorful in the film... so, what were they (team) thinking?!!
 

dorispulaski

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I do think that British Ballroom would be great for them, especially considering Jean-Luc's mom was British ice dance champion with her partner Paul Askham, and was from that school, and Jean-Luc's early training with Joylyn Yang was with his mom.

Sharon and Paul 1987 FD Swing/Blues
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s144MWHEBV8

1989 OSP Charleston
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2o_k_yvFW6E

Joylyn & Jean-Luc doing a 2011/12 FD from the British musical comedy Me and My Girl
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXVmf47I5qI
 

SnowWhite

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^^ Spot on analysis as usual WeakAnkles.. totally agree. Emeralds was a truly exquisite dance.. they never looked more beautiful or wonderful.. and, she is the only skater today, I think, that can shine in that color with her pale skin tone, dark hair and lovely eyes.. NOT those dusted down morbid gray neutrals she is saddled with, especially in the RD. Night Fever was especially colorful in the film... so, what were they (team) thinking?!!

:unsure: Her RD dress this year is not a "dusted down morbid grey neutral". It has a sheer black base with tons of silver and multi-coloured sparkles. It's not "BAM COLOUR", which it could be, but I cannot imagine how anyone could describe that as a neutral.

Last year for the RD, she had both a black and a red version of her tango dress. Not morbid or grey, and suitable to a tango (though they could have gone for a less traditional colour if they wanted). So I guess you really mean her FD costume from last season, which was black into an ombre grey skirt (he was in a grey shirt). Bright and colourful would not have suited that program, imo.


By 'Emeralds', do you mean their Amelie FD from 2013-14? I can't find a JW video, but her dress at JGPF was a nice raspberry red. Is that the colour you mean looks so good on her? Not really relevant, but going to watch it I noticed how much darker her hair is now than back then.

Anyways, other than the FD dress this year looking a little heavy (especially before they changed the tights), I don't have any problems with their recent costumes, though my favourites of theirs are older ones.
 
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