Women and the Quad

lzxnl · Nov 21, 2019

I checked out a YouTube version of the 4S in slow motion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9foZhYIgbO8
It appears to me that the jump isn't overly prerotated and is actually fully rotated on landing, although the landing is a little rough because presumably she lands it quite forward on the blade and hits the toepick. Getting caught on the toepick causes her to swing the jump around on landing, but it's not under. It's actually not even short of rotation. I'm expecting it to be higher and better at GPF.

Amei · Nov 21, 2019

Arbitrary said:
Quads frequently look tiny vs the same triple due to the more horizontal vector of momentum.
Better to rotate faster than having higher parabolic curve. Also, it makes the jump less costly, saving energy.

Shcherbakova I think is the skater that uniquely has bigger quads then her triples, her triple lutz is not the impressive in height but that quad certainly does - I believe in the analysis that's been done her's is actually bigger than Trusova's.

Bentley · Nov 21, 2019

I find it interesting that Quads are being discussed the same way Triples were not too many years ago. Without a Triple or Triple combo, no one wins. Not too many years down the road, it will be the same with Quads. There are always some skaters that are innovative and willing to push the envelope. That is what keeps skating interesting.

lzxnl · Nov 21, 2019

Bentley said:
I find it interesting that Quads are being discussed the same way Triples were not too many years ago. Without a Triple or Triple combo, no one wins. Not too many years down the road, it will be the same with Quads. There are always some skaters that are innovative and willing to push the envelope. That is what keeps skating interesting.

Except eventually, we WILL hit a physical barrier where people of most body types physically cannot rotate faster. Perhaps we haven't hit it yet, but we're getting close to it, especially when biomechanical data and new technology suggest that it'll be very hard to rotate quints.

Arbitrary · Nov 22, 2019

lzxnl said:
Except eventually, we WILL hit a physical barrier where people of most body types physically cannot rotate faster. Perhaps we haven't hit it yet, but we're getting close to it, especially when biomechanical data and new technology suggest that it'll be very hard to rotate quints.

Yes, but the regulator may adopt some technological improvements, inventions.
Better fabrics, boots, skates with moving parts (see the speed skating), maybe some KERS....

colormyworld240 · Nov 22, 2019

Amei said:
Shcherbakova I think is the skater that uniquely has bigger quads then her triples, her triple lutz is not the impressive in height but that quad certainly does - I believe in the analysis that's been done her's is actually bigger than Trusova's.

I also think Anna's 4Lz has more height and distance than Sasha's. She also has much better air position, landing, and flow. But Sasha does have a much better outside edge, so it's hard to say who has an overall better jump. Anna's certainly looks better and covers many more GOE bullets, but the clear outside edge that Sasha has is essential for a lutz.

lusterfan · Nov 22, 2019

colormyworld240 said:
I also think Anna's 4Lz has more height and distance than Sasha's. She also has much better air position, landing, and flow. But Sasha does have a much better outside edge, so it's hard to say who has an overall better jump. Anna's certainly looks better and covers many more GOE bullets, but the clear outside edge that Sasha has is essential for a lutz.

Watching Anna land a bajillion lutzes (both triple and quad) a few feet away in front of my eyes at Skate America, it was surprising how much higher her quad gets. When I thought about it more though, it makes sense why. She isn't putting in 100% into her 3Lz because she doesn't to and it's smart. Look at Kaetlyn Osmond and most of the Japanese ladies - huge and beautiful jumps that are so hard to control. As long as Anna rotates it enough, she and her team knows there's no point in putting in more height and more risk. With her 4Lz, she understandably needs to put in 110%, and I saw her wrench her body a lot more to set up for the quad. Anna practices solely on the 4Lz, where Sasha has to practice her 4T's, 4S, and conserve energy while in the program. In isolation, I wouldn't doubt Sasha's 4Lz would be much bigger and higher.

Elucidus · Nov 22, 2019

lzxnl said:
I checked out a YouTube version of the 4S in slow motion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9foZhYIgbO8
It appears to me that the jump isn't overly prerotated and is actually fully rotated on landing, although the landing is a little rough because presumably she lands it quite forward on the blade and hits the toepick. Getting caught on the toepick causes her to swing the jump around on landing, but it's not under. It's actually not even short of rotation. I'm expecting it to be higher and better at GPF.

Seriously?

Why I've never heard such explanations about any of Russian ladies quads, I wonder? :rolleye:

lzxnl · Nov 22, 2019

Well, normally we're not looking at Russian quad salchows. The Russians are doing lots of quad lutzes that ARE fishy. I don't actually ever criticise Trusova's quad salchow takeoff.

colormyworld240 · Nov 23, 2019

lusterfan said:
Watching Anna land a bajillion lutzes (both triple and quad) a few feet away in front of my eyes at Skate America, it was surprising how much higher her quad gets. When I thought about it more though, it makes sense why. She isn't putting in 100% into her 3Lz because she doesn't to and it's smart. Look at Kaetlyn Osmond and most of the Japanese ladies - huge and beautiful jumps that are so hard to control. As long as Anna rotates it enough, she and her team knows there's no point in putting in more height and more risk. With her 4Lz, she understandably needs to put in 110%, and I saw her wrench her body a lot more to set up for the quad. Anna practices solely on the 4Lz, where Sasha has to practice her 4T's, 4S, and conserve energy while in the program. In isolation, I wouldn't doubt Sasha's 4Lz would be much bigger and higher.

I disagree with the bolded statement. I think Sasha's 4Lz is then highest she can do it, not because she is trying to conserve her energy. For example, her 4T is much higher; wouldn't it be smaller if she were to conserve energy? Also, Sasha sometimes URs her 4Lz and has troubles landing it with a straight back; I bet if she could jump it higher, she would. I understand keeping triples smaller if you don't need the extra height. But Sasha can actually use the extra height on her 4Lz, so I don't think she's intentionally keeping it smaller. Additionally, her 4Lz in practice, where it is in isolation, is the same size as in the program.

Just as I think Anna's 4Lz is also the highest she can jump it. So my conclusion is that Anna does have more height and distance on that particular jump.

NaVi · Nov 25, 2019

Elena Vaytsekhovskaya made a good point(which I've been meaning to make) about quads/3a and knee/lower leg and lower back injuries. Which makes me wonder if there's a way to monitor those areas for potential problems before they flair up. It'd only be possible to catch issues from repetitive stress rather than out of the ordinary stressors. It'd be nice if there was some hard data about how(or even if) more injury prone quads/3a are.

katymay · Nov 26, 2019

Adding Tuk to the list (as of this morning) Is there a listing of girls who have landed the quad? We must be up to at least 15 by now.

waltzjump2 · Nov 26, 2019

https://www.instagram.com/p/B5U5-v4pCyl/?igshid=escprdvdfsdx

Elizaveta Tuktamysheva,4T

shark113 · Nov 26, 2019

She did it in her almost 23 y.o. Wow!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kzYekdFTHc&lc=z22ojbrwep25jpews04t1aokgaktfihv04oqlxceruxebk0h00410

Mishaminion · Nov 26, 2019

shark113 said:
She did it in her almost 23 y.o. Wow!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kzYekdFTHc&lc=z22ojbrwep25jpews04t1aokgaktfihv04oqlxceruxebk0h00410

Yep!
She's not a tiny little girl either, she's got hips and boobs.

So maybe, just maybe quads are not just for the tiny teens after all.

Russian Nationals could get even more interesting now. A true battle of quad and triple Axels.

Elucidus · Nov 26, 2019

shark113 said:
She did it in her almost 23 y.o. Wow!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kzYekdFTHc&lc=z22ojbrwep25jpews04t1aokgaktfihv04oqlxceruxebk0h00410

I don't like her 4T take off tbh. It's similar to "toe axel" take off - instead of usual 180 degree prerotation from backward position she puts her picking foot on ice turned almost forward in the air - before any prerotation even begins. Strict TP could downgrade this jump by "cheating take off" rule if they notice it in real time. And it's noticable as the quad is unusually low in height and very similar to triple visually. Trusova and Valieva 4Ts are miles better since they begin the jump from backward position properly and/or having less prerotation - and their quads have more rotations in the air and more height - looking more like proper quads as a result. Tuktamysheva begin her picking phase when she has stolen at least 140 degree of a turn already - after that she prerotates for 120 degree additionally - and only then she lifts off the ice.
Maybe she will improve her take off with time - but I doubt it tbh. Given her relatively low height and rotation speed - it would be impossible to rotate the jump otherwise.

Edwin · Nov 26, 2019

Elucidus said:
I don't like her 4T take off tbh. It's similar to "toe axel" take off - instead of usual 180 degree prerotation from backward position she puts her picking foot on ice turned almost forward in the air - before any prerotation even begins. Strict TP could downgrade this jump by "cheating take off" rule if they notice it in real time. And it's noticable as the quad is unusually low in height and very similar to triple visually. Trusova and Valieva 4Ts are miles better since they begin the jump from backward position properly and/or having less prerotation - and their quads have more rotations in the air and more height - looking more like proper quads as a result. Tuktamysheva begin her picking phase when she has stolen at least 140 degree of a turn already - after that she prerotates for 120 degree additionally - and only then she lifts off the ice.
Maybe she will improve her take off with time - but I doubt it tbh. Given her relatively low height and rotation speed - it would be impossible to rotate the jump otherwise.

Thanks for your explanation. Who is the technical specialist in #TeamMishin responsible for teaching jumps? Has he achieved something similar before? In #TeamTutberidzeForProgress it must be both Dudakov and Rozanov who teach jumping. So a comparison between styles and techniques can perhaps be made, though of course the 'flight dynamics' of children and young adolescents are different from a fully grown woman like Yelizaveta.

waltzjump2 · Nov 26, 2019

Elucidus said:
I don't like her 4T take off tbh. It's similar to "toe axel" take off - instead of usual 180 degree prerotation from backward position she puts her picking foot on ice turned almost forward in the air - before any prerotation even begins. Strict TP could downgrade this jump by "cheating take off" rule if they notice it in real time. And it's noticable as the quad is unusually low in height and very similar to triple visually. Trusova and Valieva 4Ts are miles better since they begin the jump from backward position properly and/or having less prerotation - and their quads have more rotations in the air and more height - looking more like proper quads as a result. Tuktamysheva begin her picking phase when she has stolen at least 140 degree of a turn already - after that she prerotates for 120 degree additionally - and only then she lifts off the ice.
Maybe she will improve her take off with time - but I doubt it tbh. Given her relatively low height and rotation speed - it would be impossible to rotate the jump otherwise.

Not that I believe her takeoff is perfect, but at least Trusova does the same thing, reaching pretty far back behind herself with her picking foot before jumping (granted, a little less pre-rotation, but for the toeloop I think less than 180° from beginning of jump is acceptable?). Also I think Trusova’s 4T is really good, so thing is nothing against her.

Elucidus · Nov 26, 2019

Hm, it seems I was too strict for Liza's quad after all - my apologies :laugh:

I mean - I've just rewatched some other 4Ts from even men - and it seems I was wrong in assuming that this technique is something unusual for 4T. It appears majority of 4Ts are done with "toe axel" technique anyway - and noone cares about it

Given that - it makes "cheated take off" rule even more useless than it appeared before :biggrin:

Example: Yuzuru Hanyu 4T https://youtu.be/nYvvwVkp3Es?t=445
Yes, he has pretty low amount of prerotation there - but why it should matter when he begins it in a moment where his picking foot is already turned to face forward? :scratch2:

If the best of the best among men are jumping like that - it makes all usual blames against "cheated" ladies quads seems.. hypocritical, mildly speaking :coffee:

waltzjump2 · Nov 26, 2019

Elucidus said:
Hm, it seems I was too strict for Liza's quad after all - my apologies I mean - I've just rewatched some other 4Ts from even men - and it seems I was wrong in assuming that this technique is something unusual for 4T. It appears majority of 4Ts are done with "toe axel" technique anyway - and noone cares about it Given that - it makes "cheated take off" rule even more useless than it appeared before
Example: Yuzuru Hanyu 4T https://youtu.be/nYvvwVkp3Es?t=445
Yes, he has pretty low amount of prerotation there - but why it should matter when he begins it in a moment where his picking foot is already turned to face forward? If the best of the best among men are jumping like that - it makes all usual blames against "cheated" ladies quads seems.. hypocritical, mildly speaking

That’s just the technique for the toe-loop, I think. 180° rotation or less on the ice because of the mechanics of the jump. I’m not an expert, but I’m pretty sure ‘forward’ /toe-axel takeoff or similar is just common.

Women and the Quad

lzxnl

Amei

Bentley

lzxnl

Arbitrary

colormyworld240

lusterfan

Elucidus

Match Penalty

lzxnl

colormyworld240

NaVi

katymay

waltzjump2

shark113

Mishaminion

Elucidus

Match Penalty

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!

waltzjump2

Elucidus

Match Penalty

waltzjump2

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