Women and the Quad | Page 82 | Golden Skate

Women and the Quad

Arbitrary

Medalist
Joined
Sep 5, 2018
Russian source (sport-express.ru) mentioned gossips that ISU Tech decided to prolong banning quads in female Short Programs till further notice.
There will be no quads in SP next season.
 

McBibus

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 7, 2019
Russian source (sport-express.ru) mentioned gossips that ISU Tech decided to prolong banning quads in female Short Programs till further notice.
There will be no quads in SP next season.

I expect that before they will make a decision all the top ladies will jump 3A, and that would be a very good reason to keep the ban to "force" different contents bewteen SP and FS.
It's an extremely personal opinion I know, but I think the only reason stanting now is about equal opportunities because Aliona takes advantage out of it but all the best will have 3A by next season.
If not it would be because they choosed not to work on it to pursue other objectives.
Resolved that issue i would prefer to see an SP that is not a shorter version of the FS.
 

Arbitrary

Medalist
Joined
Sep 5, 2018
I expect that before they will make a decision all the top ladies will jump 3A, and that would be a very good reason to keep the ban to "force" different contents bewteen SP and FS.
It's an extremely personal opinion I know, but I think the only reason stanting now is about equal opportunities because Aliona takes advantage out of it but all the best will have 3A by next season.
If not it would be because they choosed not to work on it to pursue other objectives.
Resolved that issue i would prefer to see an SP that is not a shorter version of the FS.

Having a very limited maximum base value for SP like 3A/3F//3Lz3Lo (what Trusova in her potential has now) or slightly better with 3A/3Lo//3Lz(D)3F makes possible to closely compare the jumping quality and overall.

Further pressing combo is impossible now: you cannot do 3Lz3Lz or 3A+3X
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I find it extremely hard to be impressed by this. It just looks like a poorly done triple honestly.

Wow, tough critic! It doesn't have a ton of height, but it is neatly done, unlike other quad-triples, and looks rotated (or close to it).

YMMV, clearly, but I'm always impressed by youngsters, male or female, doing quads. I don't expect them to have the height of a Trusova, I just admire them going for the element, and executing it pretty decently.

Are we so desensitized to quad attempts now that it's no longer impressive? :laugh: Certainly more impressed by these neatly done quad attempts than those that are underrotated or with falls.. or both.
 

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Wow, tough critic! It doesn't have a ton of height, but it is neatly done, unlike other quad-triples, and looks rotated (or close to it).

YMMV, clearly, but I'm always impressed by youngsters, male or female, doing quads. I don't expect them to have the height of a Trusova, I just admire them going for the element, and executing it pretty decently.

Are we so desensitized to quad attempts now that it's no longer impressive? :laugh: Certainly more impressed by these neatly done quad attempts than those that are underrotated or with falls.. or both.

AFAIK, Liza has already competed her quad, but not very successfully thus far. Clearly a work in progress also. She is a slim and slender as Anna Shcherbakova was at that age, and see where expert training has gotten Anna now ...
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
Ok... A question. Why is Anna's quad lutz 3.25 rotations? I watched many times... Yuna's triple lutz is 2.75 rotations and Kolyada's quad lutz is 3.75 rotations. Where is the missing half rotation of Anna? No bashing. I thought she is doing this half rotation on the ice, but it is not even there...

Do you really want to know or are you just making a statement?
 

ladyjane

Medalist
Joined
Jun 26, 2012
Country
Netherlands
Ok... A question. Why is Anna's quad lutz 3.25 rotations? I watched many times... Yuna's triple lutz is 2.75 rotations and Kolyada's quad lutz is 3.75 rotations. Where is the missing half rotation of Anna? No bashing. I thought she is doing this half rotation on the ice, but it is not even there...

Well, as far as I know, if the judges think it's okay (they do look at the jumps you know), who are we to nitpick on this? Don't get me wrong, Anna bores me with her many lutzes (even if I think it's a great achievement and she is a wonderful skater, I like a bit more variety in jumps. But she does a lot of other nice things besides jumps anyway), but I'm not going to make problems about the number of rotations, if the judges think it's okay. In fact, I never noticed a missing half rotation, but then - again - I'm no judge. They look impressive to me.
 

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
I find it extremely hard to be impressed by this. It just looks like a poorly done triple honestly.

Well,duh - she is 12 y.o. only and the quad is URed :confused2: Still, what is important is not current quality of the jump - but future potential. That, and whether it's worthy to be impressed or not - for some reason, mostly Russian juniors are showing such progress en masse while juniors from other countries - can't. Unfortunately it's a sign that future potential new senior quadsters are bound to be Russians only.
Possibly it's the main reason why ISU refused proposition of RusFed about lifting quads ban in SP for women.
Src: https://www.sports.ru/figure-skating/1082533975.html
 

Yuzuruu

the silent assassin
Medalist
Joined
Nov 21, 2017
Wow, tough critic! It doesn't have a ton of height, but it is neatly done, unlike other quad-triples, and looks rotated (or close to it).

YMMV, clearly, but I'm always impressed by youngsters, male or female, doing quads. I don't expect them to have the height of a Trusova, I just admire them going for the element, and executing it pretty decently.

Are we so desensitized to quad attempts now that it's no longer impressive? :laugh: Certainly more impressed by these neatly done quad attempts than those that are underrotated or with falls.. or both.

I'm sorry, I am a bit of a grumpy cat :laugh: I do think it's great that girls are pushing the boundaries, the sport is evolving and it makes it exciting, that's for sure :)
 

Mawwerg

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Quads count: 112

Congratulations to Elizaveta Berestovskaya for her first clean quad in a competition!
 

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
Kaori Sakamoto attempted 4T at a local competition in Japan! She fell and it was downgraded, but still, it's great to see her try new things!

https://twitter.com/nwcgold2020/status/1223636643929673729

While it would be positive thing to encourage it - unfortunately I can't. Why skaters constantly dinged by URs on triples are always boasting/trying to jump quads/3A when they can't rotate enough even their triples? In that case those attempts are bound to be a failure in actual competition. Just see actual quadsters - Trusova, Scherbakova. They don't have UR issues on their triples - moreover, they often rotate their triples fully being still in air. Is there can be more obvious hint? Do no try to jump quads until you perfected triples and made them unbelievably easy and high. Unless you want to have injury. But situation now with quads learners reminds me some addicted casino players. When they are far from ready but wants to rely on some twist of crazy luck. Moreover, even with unlikely successful landing - they are just not training enough their triples and stamina to be able to conserve their quad advantage until the end of skate. Trusova and Scherbakova are not strong because of quads. They are strong because they jumps all their triples and triple combinations at the end of the program without issues, they don't lose levels on spins etc. They specifically train to skate such layout until the end whether they falls on quads or not. Triples first, quads later - that's the point.
The same, but to a lesser extent, can be said even about Rika. She isn't stable enough on triples/3A to include quad IMO. Unless she begins to land multiple quads attempts during practices like Trusova - it will remain casino game. That's.. not how I imagine quads revolution will be - and not what it should be/I want it to be. For now it's obvious that only Russia has advanced enough system of coaches and resources to make ladies quads not a casino game but routine jumps. All other countries attempts looks so far.. rather random. Based on what we've seen until now - the most important factor in making ladies quads into routine jumps is raising novices and juniors keeping special training for quads in mind - like it is done with boys, for example. Seniors can't learn them from zero point - with rare exceptions maybe (still, even Liza trained 3A from her childhood). And juniors sport education in other countries except Russia.. are rather bad. It's fully individual approach there combined with full course of general education - which makes learning quads to competitive form an almost impossible task. Therefore future prospects for nonRussian ladies quadsters seems to me rather grim for now.
Maybe you think I am too pessimistic? Ok, just watch nearest RusJrNat or latest Moscow novices competition - you will see how many quadsters and 3A jumpers there even now. There are at least 5 novice and junior ladies already with such jumps landed in competition. What we can see in other countries junior competitions? Nothing. If there is nothing now - there will be nothing in future too. How much time already passed since Trusova's famous two quads JWC? Two years already. I mean - there is definitely a huge lag for other countries to reap the benefits of that breakthrough. Moreover, I have a feeling that they just don't care and patiently waits until ISU bans/limits quads again. And that's all progress for ya :sarcasm:

P.S.: at least there is Alysa Liu - but will it be enough? :think:
 

lzxnl

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
I don't know if Kaori is actually unready to train a 4T. She was able to skate through an entire free program with a (downgraded fall on a) quad and all her triples at a domestic competition recently. As for Rika, she makes like, one or two random mistakes per competition. She is actually fairly consistent about that, and aside from WTT 2019 (which, let's be frank, isn't the most important) and perhaps GPF this year (where her ankle was injured and she was clearly not in good shape but still landed some nice 3As), she hasn't really bombed at a competition in the last two seasons. I would say that it's only logical for Rika to train a quad or two right now. However, I do agree that she needs to work those legs more to jump higher. Hopefully next season. Her 3A is already very high, so I trust that she has the leg strength.
 

Fluture

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 26, 2018
Just see actual quadsters - Trusova, Scherbakova. They don't have UR issues on their triples - moreover, they often rotate their triples fully being still in air. Is there can be more obvious hint? Do no try to jump quads until you perfected triples and made them unbelievably easy and high.

Uh, I happen to disagree with this. Sasha, yes, she‘s one of the few skaters I‘ve seen who rarely URs (if she does it‘s mostly the 3Lo in her 3Lz+3Lo combo) But Anna? Honestly, it always surprises me she manages to do quads at all because her triples are pretty much the opposite of high. She relies on rotation speed mostly. I‘d say that‘s fairly obvious. And I wouldn‘t exactly call her backloaded 3Lz+3Lo or +Eu+3S in the FS “easy looking“ either. She often barely makes the rotations. Compared to the very same Kaori with her 3F+3T for example. (When she lands it) Anna is way more consistent than Kaori, that‘s for sure. But consistency doesn‘t make your jumps high and easy. Now, what‘s more beneficial is another issue. (I‘d say consistency because it quite literally gets you everything - from GOE to even PCS) Really, from all quadsters, who is there who has these “unbelievably easy and high triple jumps“?

Tursynbaeva? Hardly. Anna? Alysa Liu? Honestly, no. Really, there‘s only Sasha who comes to mind who doesn‘t rely on pure rotation speed and pre-rotation and actually has some very decent height too on her triples. But the main thing Anna, Alysa and even Sasha have going for them is consistency.

As for Kaori‘s quad attempt. She can jump high, she has power, I could see her land a quad some day. But really, all this attempt did was make me feel bad. It‘s so obviously not ready and imo, it‘s a sad sign where our sport’s headed when skaters feel they need to include a half-finished element to have any chance at winning. You want to know why skaters include elements that aren‘t ready? Because they‘re competitive and want to win and currently they must feel like they‘ll never have a chance against the ever changing crop of Russian wunderkids (case in point the novices throwing quads and 3A left and right there)

I don‘t know if that‘s good. I will wait and see whether Anna and Sasha will be able to keep up for a few years and not be replaced completely and then judge. If quads are only done by 15 year old juniors and new seniors, I‘d encourage the ISU to look into it because that’s obviously not what elite sport on the senior level should look like. But if we have Anna and Sasha who stick around for some time, inspiring other athletes not just from Russia to teach sustainable for quads, then I‘d be willing to call it “progress“. Before that, no, because we don‘t know yet where it will lead. So far it‘s a technical evolution. But for me that‘s not always progress for the sport itself. That, imo, remains to be seen. Two years is not nearly enough.
 

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
But Anna? Honestly, it always surprises me she manages to do quads at all because her triples are pretty much the opposite of high. She relies on rotation speed mostly. I‘d say that‘s fairly obvious. And I wouldn‘t exactly call her backloaded 3Lz+3Lo or +Eu+3S in the FS “easy looking“ either. She often barely makes the rotations. Compared to the very same Kaori with her 3F+3T for example. (When she lands it) Anna is way more consistent than Kaori, that‘s for sure. But consistency doesn‘t make your jumps high and easy. Now, what‘s more beneficial is another issue. (I‘d say consistency because it quite literally gets you everything - from GOE to even PCS) Really, from all quadsters, who is there who has these “unbelievably easy and high triple jumps“?
It was my fault, sorry. I forgot to mention rotation speed. One can make low jumps - but if he has high rotation speed - the jumps are easy nevertheless. Height have even less importance in quads consistency than rotation speed. What important is how easy triples are landed and how much they rotated. Yes, Anna URs them occasionally at the end of program due to stamina issues - well, she is not as sturdy as Sasha after all. Still, in the end, triples for her are much easier than for majority of other skaters - and that's what matters most.

Tursynbaeva? Hardly.
She has issues with her lutz/flip jumps which are more related to her jumping technique than to degree of rotation. Well, anyway, I didn't even considered her as stable quadster though.
Anna? Alysa Liu? Honestly, no.
Contrary to some beliefs Alysa has very easy and solid triples. Moreover, her jumps are low enough but she is so fast that she can rotate them without running up.

As for Kaori‘s quad attempt. She can jump high, she has power, I could see her land a quad some day.
No. Be realistic, will you? As I said before - height is not most important factor. Tsurskaya and Sotskova had tremendously high triples - which were almost always URed as well. With the body build Kaori has - I can't see her making rotation fast enough. For quads she should make her body more thin and light - which isn't possible for her IMO. I suspect the same reason for lack of quads has Brown and Vasilievs in men, for example. There are skaters who can't jump quads whether they want it or not - it's just physiological reality. Everyone can't be the same.

If quads are only done by 15 year old juniors and new seniors, I‘d encourage the ISU to look into it because that’s obviously not what elite sport on the senior level should look like.
Do you have anything against new seniors? I believe that new seniors are going to keep their quads later too - if they have them now. And after couple of seasons they will turn into "old" seniors as well - so many naysayers will lost their ground in antiquads debates eventually. For now quads distribution is unbalanced both in age and nationality. For age it's just transitional period and it will be fixed with time more sooner than you think. For nationality.. I can't see perspectives in near future, I am afraid. It will be Russia, USA and maybe Japan - that's it.
 

colormyworld240

Medalist
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
Uh, I happen to disagree with this. Sasha, yes, she‘s one of the few skaters I‘ve seen who rarely URs (if she does it‘s mostly the 3Lo in her 3Lz+3Lo combo) But Anna? Honestly, it always surprises me she manages to do quads at all because her triples are pretty much the opposite of high. She relies on rotation speed mostly. I‘d say that‘s fairly obvious. And I wouldn‘t exactly call her backloaded 3Lz+3Lo or +Eu+3S in the FS “easy looking“ either. She often barely makes the rotations. Compared to the very same Kaori with her 3F+3T for example. (When she lands it) Anna is way more consistent than Kaori, that‘s for sure. But consistency doesn‘t make your jumps high and easy. Now, what‘s more beneficial is another issue. (I‘d say consistency because it quite literally gets you everything - from GOE to even PCS) Really, from all quadsters, who is there who has these “unbelievably easy and high triple jumps“?

Tursynbaeva? Hardly. Anna? Alysa Liu? Honestly, no. Really, there‘s only Sasha who comes to mind who doesn‘t rely on pure rotation speed and pre-rotation and actually has some very decent height too on her triples. But the main thing Anna, Alysa and even Sasha have going for them is consistency.

As for Kaori‘s quad attempt. She can jump high, she has power, I could see her land a quad some day. But really, all this attempt did was make me feel bad. It‘s so obviously not ready and imo, it‘s a sad sign where our sport’s headed when skaters feel they need to include a half-finished element to have any chance at winning. You want to know why skaters include elements that aren‘t ready? Because they‘re competitive and want to win and currently they must feel like they‘ll never have a chance against the ever changing crop of Russian wunderkids (case in point the novices throwing quads and 3A left and right there)

I don‘t know if that‘s good. I will wait and see whether Anna and Sasha will be able to keep up for a few years and not be replaced completely and then judge. If quads are only done by 15 year old juniors and new seniors, I‘d encourage the ISU to look into it because that’s obviously not what elite sport on the senior level should look like. But if we have Anna and Sasha who stick around for some time, inspiring other athletes not just from Russia to teach sustainable for quads, then I‘d be willing to call it “progress“. Before that, no, because we don‘t know yet where it will lead. So far it‘s a technical evolution. But for me that‘s not always progress for the sport itself. That, imo, remains to be seen. Two years is not nearly enough.

Perhaps when she was younger. But certainly not this season. I think there have been measurements done by fans of Anna's 4Lz, and it was actually higher than Sasha's. But of course I don't know how accurate these are. AFAIK, Anna's triples have never been measured professionally in competition. But I do recall at GPF this year, Anna's 2A was measured with the setup that they had there, and the official stats were displayed in the replay on the stream. That's the only jump they measured for her and the numbers were similar to Valieva's, who is known to have a very good 2A.

Anna has developed a bit of a reputation for tiny jumps in her novice years, and they were indeed tiny, but they certainly are not anymore. She gets a lot of height and distance, particularly in her quads but also some of her triples, and they definitely do not mostly rely on fast rotation. Her single triples are not prone to under rotations, her -3Lo and -3S combos are. But that's also why we don't see her doing those combos on the quads, obviously. The 3Lz and 3F has rarely been UR, if ever.

As for Tursynbaeva, the only time she landed her 4S was at worlds last year. One jump per lady was officially measured there as well, and unless I am mistaken, that 4S was the highest measured jump of the ladies' competition. So certainly not small, otherwise everyone else including the other podium finishers Alina and Evgenia would have teeny tiny jumps by that definition.
 

brakes

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 31, 2020
I'd agree Anna's triples are not that impressive, but her quads are humongous: just as high as Sasha's, but with bigger distance.
 

Happy Skates

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 18, 2019
Having a very limited maximum base value for SP like 3A/3F//3Lz3Lo (what Trusova in her potential has now) or slightly better with 3A/3Lo//3Lz(D)3F makes possible to closely compare the jumping quality and overall.

Further pressing combo is impossible now: you cannot do 3Lz3Lz or 3A+3X

If comparing jumping quality were the goal, then 3As should also be "banned" since a majority of the top ladies don't have one.
 

Fluture

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 26, 2018
It was my fault, sorry. I forgot to mention rotation speed. One can make low jumps - but if he has high rotation speed - the jumps are easy nevertheless. Height have even less importance in quads consistency than rotation speed. What important is how easy triples are landed and how much they rotated. Yes, Anna URs them occasionally at the end of program due to stamina issues - well, she is not as sturdy as Sasha after all. Still, in the end, triples for her are much easier than for majority of other skaters - and that's what matters most.

Well, then you will have to revise your argument. It‘s not “high and easy“ triples you need to attempt quads, it‘s “consistent“ triples. Which is certainly true but I do hope that we will see more ladies learn a quad who rely on height more than rotation speed.

She has issues with her lutz/flip jumps which are more related to her jumping technique than to degree of rotation. Well, anyway, I didn't even considered her as stable quadster though.

If you don‘t consider her a stable quadster (which she isn‘t, certainly) then we run into the problem that there ARE no stable quadsters other than Sasha and Anna. Alysa underrorates/downgrades her 4Lz more often than she lands it cleanly as you‘ve made sure to remind us after each of her events during the JGP series. So, two skaters isn‘t nearly enough to make a satisfactory conclusion on the sustainability of quads in ladies. We will, as simple as that, need more time and more ladies attempting quads in competition.

Contrary to some beliefs Alysa has very easy and solid triples. Moreover, her jumps are low enough but she is so fast that she can rotate them without running up.

Then again, your original argument is the problem because Alysa definitely does not have high triples. She is a fast rotator, sure. But the problem with that is always that you have to be physically tiny for that technique to work. Jumps like these will be consistent when you‘re young but as soon as you grow, you‘ll have to adjust the technique. And that can be very difficult.

No. Be realistic, will you? As I said before - height is not most important factor. Tsurskaya and Sotskova had tremendously high triples - which were almost always URed as well. With the body build Kaori has - I can't see her making rotation fast enough. For quads she should make her body more thin and light - which isn't possible for her IMO. I suspect the same reason for lack of quads has Brown and Vasilievs in men, for example. There are skaters who can't jump quads whether they want it or not - it's just physiological reality. Everyone can't be the same.

And that‘s exactly the problem I have with the quads that are being landed in ladies at the moment. That there is the perception that you need to be “thin and light“ only. I do not think, or I do not want to think, that the only way for quads to be landed is by rotating insanely fast and being tiny enough to vault your body into the air. Tuktamysheva, if she lands her quads consistently, could prove that theory wrong and I hope she does.

Now, I do not know whether Kaori will get a quad and at the moment I think a 3A might be more attainable. But I hope that, if not her, other ladies who don‘t have that kind of tiny and light body, will land quads.

Do you have anything against new seniors? I believe that new seniors are going to keep their quads later too - if they have them now. And after couple of seasons they will turn into "old" seniors as well - so many naysayers will lost their ground in antiquads debates eventually. For now quads distribution is unbalanced both in age and nationality. For age it's just transitional period and it will be fixed with time more sooner than you think. For nationality.. I can't see perspectives in near future, I am afraid. It will be Russia, USA and maybe Japan - that's it.

Did I make it, at any point, seem like I had something against new seniors? I don’t think so. What I was saying was merely that IF quads will only be landed by 15, 16 year olds (juniors and new seniors) in the future, I would not welcome this technical evolution. A sport like this should not be an Olympic sport. This is a very clear “IF“ though and it is perfectly possible that Sasha and Anna will keep landing quads somewhat consistently after they’ve grown. If so, and if other skaters from different nationalities, age and body types catch up, I will accept this technical leap not only as such but as a real progress for this sport. Compare it to the men’s event where it’s not just Russia, Japan and the USA. But it took a while for quads to become as much of a normality as they are now.

For this to happen in the ladies, however, I believe we will have to wait at least a few more years because big changes may happen soon but it takes much longer see the real consequences and effects. That’s not me disliking new seniors, it is me trying to think this through all the way and not just going: “yay! Quads! Progress!“

Perhaps when she was younger. But certainly not this season. I think there have been measurements done by fans of Anna's 4Lz, and it was actually higher than Sasha's. But of course I don't know how accurate these are. AFAIK, Anna's triples have never been measured professionally in competition. But I do recall at GPF this year, Anna's 2A was measured with the setup that they had there, and the official stats were displayed in the replay on the stream. That's the only jump they measured for her and the numbers were similar to Valieva's, who is known to have a very good 2A.

Anna has developed a bit of a reputation for tiny jumps in her novice years, and they were indeed tiny, but they certainly are not anymore. She gets a lot of height and distance, particularly in her quads but also some of her triples, and they definitely do not mostly rely on fast rotation. Her single triples are not prone to under rotations, her -3Lo and -3S combos are. But that's also why we don't see her doing those combos on the quads, obviously. The 3Lz and 3F has rarely been UR, if ever.

As for Tursynbaeva, the only time she landed her 4S was at worlds last year. One jump per lady was officially measured there as well, and unless I am mistaken, that 4S was the highest measured jump of the ladies' competition. So certainly not small, otherwise everyone else including the other podium finishers Alina and Evgenia would have teeny tiny jumps by that definition.

Well, first of, the discussion was about the height of the quadsters‘ triples, so neither Anna‘s 4Lz nor Tursy‘s 4S are a part of that. In fact, I actually said that it always surprises me that Anna manages to get the height she does on her quads specifically because her triples aren‘t that high.

As for the rest, I’m a bit confused tbh. Do you really mean to tell me that Anna Shcherbakova‘s jumps rely more on height than rotation speed? Because then I‘d have to check my eyes, sorry to say it as drastic as that. I‘m sure she has improved over the years but e.g. at Euros she was in the same warm-up group as Sasha, Aliona, Alexia Paganini and Emmi Peltonen all of whom had much higher jumps than she did. That‘s not saying her jumps don‘t look easy - they can, when she doesn‘t have to do them after attempting three quads and a bunch of other triples. Her 3Lz+3Lo in the SP, while not particularly high, is fast and easy and beautiful. But I would never say that she was known for being a high jumper because she just isn‘t. Now, are her triples the lowest in the field? Certainly not. At the same time, if you look at her triples (and even the quad despite the better height), it is clear to me that she‘s mostly not jumping from the legs (like Sasha does on her 4T for example) but twists her upper body into the rotation. Someone who does that doesn‘t rely on height to jump, sorry, they rely on being able to rotate very quickly.

For Tursynbaeva, you‘re comparing apples with oranges. I would certainly hope that her 4S was the highest jump in the field, considering that there were no other quad attempts. Otherwise, if it was merely as high as Alina‘s and Zhenya‘s triples, I‘d ask myself about the physics involved, allowing her to even land that jump. :laugh:

The argument wasn‘t about Tursynbaeva‘s 4S, though, it was her triples. Look at her 3Lz and 3F for example. Are they high and easy? And she hasn‘t been as consistent on her triples as Anna and Sasha have, for example, either.
 
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