Women and the Quad | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Women and the Quad

beki

Medalist
Joined
Feb 24, 2014
That's why people want Wakaba Higuchi to try; she seems a bit like them. :love:
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
You can still be on the olympic podium with 6 triples?...and that was Yu-Na....if she comes back and does 6 triples in South Korea she would still be on the podium (center of it, likely), believe me.

I'm saying there were many ladies 25 years ago that could do the same technical content as now, certainly not as many but there were many. No men or pairs team 25 years ago could do the same technical content or (for pairs) execute it as well.

As for Yuna Kim on podium with 6 triples - not possible even in Korea, because the PCs have an upper limit, and there are many ladies now who get Yu Na level PCs, we lik it or not, and those scores won't drop for Olympics. Gracie Gold was 4th in USA with 6 triples - the only one who did 6 triples in the FS in top 10 ^^

As for 25 years ago... I disagree: if ladies could do the same technical content, why weren't they doing it? Why most were not jumping 7 triples in FS, for example?
There were great skaters who could probably compete today, but you need one hand to count them. Same with men: they were landing quads 25 years ago, but not putting out 3+ quad FS on a regular basis.
 

Senescal

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 26, 2016
Mao did practice quad salchow when she was younger, but really the judging system doesn't provide much incentive for the dramatic risk increase. At the time, she was a junior and didn't need the new jumps to win anyway.

I don't blame skaters for backloading their programs with triple-triples, as they don't have incentive to try more difficult jumps. I feel like ladies skating has stagnated in jump content not because of their ability but because their is not enough incentive to continue pushing the boundaries

Tuktamysheva dominated women´s figureskating with only a 3A a couple of seasons ago, I can´t imagine what a woman could achive only with one quad in her arsenal.
 

Biellmann

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 14, 2016
Evgenia tried the 4S and she could fight but she also said that you can see when a jump is not your own.

I think Eteri also said in a recent interview that we will see a new girl from her group able to land 4S or 3A.

Her girls are not even able to land a good 2A :laugh:
 

mcq

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 28, 2016
As for Yuna Kim on podium with 6 triples - not possible even in Korea, because the PCs have an upper limit, and there are many ladies now who get Yu Na level PCs, we lik it or not, and those scores won't drop for Olympics. Gracie Gold was 4th in USA with 6 triples - the only one who did 6 triples in the FS in top 10 ^^
So did you just forget that Yuna got 75 TES, 73 PCS and 148 FS score at 2013 worlds with just 6 triple and average backloading? And that was before score was inflated like it is recently.The only person who ever scored higher than 148 is Sotnikova at olympics and Medvedeva at worlds 2016. That's it. Being a veteran + a home skater, Yuna could get 76-77 TES and 76-77 PCS with a clean skate.
So yes, IF Yuna can still land her jumps like she did at 2013 or 2014, she will still be competitive and podium or even gold medal material. I don't know why you would dismiss her when her numbers clearly said otherwise.
Either way, this talk is useless cause she is retired and not coming back no matter what.

Anyway, I partially agree with the ladies stagnating. Nothing new in the technical arsenal, but what they are gaining is consistency on triples and 3-3s and how the field even out because there are more who are consistent. Oh. And the ability to backload and tano/rippon everything :)
 

Ares

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Country
Poland
The trend nowadays is towards slim skaters who rotate quickly in the air, however in the past there were some extremely muscular and powerful skaters like Ito, Harding, and Bonaly who could do some amazing jumps.

When you watch Harding's 3A it really puts to shame the feeble attempts you see from the female skaters nowadays.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOP3Dj0DraQ&t=45s

Yup. I also noticed how different in general are ladies skaters physiques vs the 90s. They more often seemed to have more muscles on their legs and thighs. My father called them ''dupiaste'' - ''with butts'' but in kind manner, not related to being fat or whatsoever. :biggrin:

More like typical speed skater type of body :biggrin:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/02/3a/54/023a54098760dbda94a8172f120b8990.jpg
 
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Warwick360

Medalist
Joined
Dec 3, 2014
Yup. I also noticed how different in general are ladies skaters physiques vs the 90s. They more often seemed to have more muscles on their legs and thighs. My father called them ''dupiaste'' - ''with butts'' but in kind manner. :biggrin:

Perhaps why I like Gabrielle Daleman. For me she's like a throwback to the Ito days. Never thought I'd be impressed with a 3T-3T combination at this day and age like I've been with her. Just the height and the edge, and the speed. :love:
 

Ares

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Country
Poland
Perhaps why I like Gabrielle Daleman. For me she's like a throwback to the Ito days. Never thought I'd be impressed with a 3T-3T combination at this day and age like I've been with her. Just the height and the edge, and the speed. :love:

Yes I love her jumps. I noticed that Canadian ladies & men share my favourite jumping technique, even those not from the top. :)
 

Miller

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 29, 2016
Re the Ladies stagnating what seems to happening is a lot of 'filling out' behind the top skaters e.g. Mao Asada was 6th at World Champs in 2012 with 164, but 7th last year with 200! It's really quite shocking if you look at the scores just a year or two prior to Sochi - Carolina won the 2012 worlds with 189. Just shows how brilliant Yuna Kim was. The battle now is breaking the Triple Axel or Quad Barrier but obviously historically it's been a tough nut to crack as you need a certain degree of athleticism no matter what. However there does seem to be plenty of people trying them in practice, plus maybe it's just a case of being brave enough - perhaps the Olympics could be the perfect opportunity!
 
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Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
The simple fact is women's bodies change too much during puberty to expect their suddenly to be a whole bunch of girls doing 3axels or quads. We might see the occasional skater land a 3axel when they are 14 and tiny but what happens when their body changes? As for quads it will take someone like a Midori Ito to pull that off and someone like that only comes along once every 30 years or so and as of now we are still waiting otherwise it's not happening.
 
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Biellmann

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 14, 2016
Even many men are not able to jump/land a quad :rolleye:

Look at how many of the quad jumpers are injured, how can you expect from a growing girl to jump quads :laugh:
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Just saw the Tonya's clip again and wow, her speed is amazing. She's like a speed skater!
If the likes of Tonya and Midori can't do quad, I don't think Wakaba and Gaby can legitimately rotate them on a regular basis. They don't jump as big or have the same kind of speed.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Just saw the Tonya's clip again and wow, her speed is amazing. She's like a speed skater!
If the likes of Tonya and Midori can't do quad, I don't think Wakaba and Gaby can legitimately rotate them on a regular basis. They don't jump as big or have the same kind of speed.

It might have been harder for Tonya and Midori because they delayed the start of their rotation. The ladies now tend to get right into the rotation, so with more height some of the current women might get them rotated.
 

cathlen

Team Gorgeous Cacti!
Record Breaker
Joined
May 2, 2015
Country
Poland
The simple fact is women's bodies change too much during puberty to expect their suddenly to be a whole bunch of girls doing 3axels or quads. We might see the occasional skater land a 3axel when they are 14 and tiny but what happens when their body changes? As for quads it will take someone like a Midori Ito to pull that off and someone like that only comes along once every 30 years or so and as of now we are still waiting otherwise it's not happening.

Well, Liza Tuktamysheva landed perfect 3A at Worlds while being already after puberty... and it was only two years ago. And she isn't the tiniest of Ladies. So it is possible. (But of course, she has trained it first before she hit puberty). But I think there aren't that many coaches who could teach properly 3A or quad. Liza other than having natural talent was also lucky to have Mishin as a coach....
 

mcq

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 28, 2016
If the ladies can't land their 3-3s and triples consistently just yet, training quad and 3A is a bit of a waste of time in my opinion.
Quad and 3A could be a real weapon only if :
1) They can depend on their 3-3s and triples when their quad/3A does not work out.
2) They can rotate the quad or 3A 80-90% of the time. Even if they fall on it, 4T/4S will still give a net point of 5.3/5.5 and 3A give 4.5; Still higher than the BV of a 2A (3.3 pts). But if it was called as UR or downgrade, yikes, what a waste of point. Don't do it.
3) Even top men would have just about 60-70% success rate for quads at best, and maybe pushing 80% when they are really good and in a good condition. For 3A, top men's success rate is about 70-80% while about 90% for those who really excels at 3A. These jumps are not meant to be as consistent other triples, even for men. So for women, as long as they can land and rotate it 1 out of 2, It should be good enough to be included. If it is below that, forget it, not worth it if what they want is to win and get a good score. If it is for the wow factor, then it's fine.
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
Well, Liza Tuktamysheva landed perfect 3A at Worlds while being already after puberty... and it was only two years ago. And she isn't the tiniest of Ladies. So it is possible. (But of course, she has trained it first before she hit puberty). But I think there aren't that many coaches who could teach properly 3A or quad. Liza other than having natural talent was also lucky to have Mishin as a coach....

But even she can't land a 3axel anymore and like i said a skater might come along every few years and land a 3axel but it's not going to become a regular thing among the ladies.
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Country
Olympics
Here's to hoping that Quads don't become a "thing" in ladies skating. The quad chaos in the mens field drives me batty as it is.
 

Miller

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 29, 2016
Wonder if with all the top women now doing 7 triples and 2 double axels, how much of this is down to improved training, technique and fitness compared with just a few years ago. If so 3As and quads may be a bit closer than what people think, though a certain degree of athleticism will always be required no matter what.
 
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solani

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Country
Austria
Wonder if with all the top women now doing 7 triples and 2 double axels, how much of this is down to improved training, technique and fitness compared with just a few years ago. If so 3As and quads may be a bit closer than what people think, though a certain degree of athleticism will always be required no matter what.
I think the technique is different, the women don't jump as high as they used to. That's because the want good flow out of the jump, so that they can do those difficult combos that weren't necessary a couple of years ago. Triple-triple combinations for women were very rare in the 1980's and became more common slowly. But this different technique might also make the 3A or quads more difficult for ladies nowadays. Most of the ladies who do a 2A-3T in the FS don't have a very high 2A, but very good speed out of the jump.
 
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