Women and the Quad

el henry · Oct 8, 2019

There is every reason, related to health, why the age for skating in the Olympics should be raised. In my opinion, if there is any doubt, one errs on the side of health. Full stop.

Arguments (directed to me) that you are prejudiced against a country or against a coach or against a skater shows that they've never read any of my posts. I'm crushed :laugh:

Arguments directed to "some people" are meaningless. (ETA: because they cannot be answered and appear to be directed at phantoms) and may be disregarded. :biggrin:

That is all.

Mishaminion · Oct 8, 2019

drivingmissdaisy said:
It's not just the women. If you look at men doing quads, especially those who do more than one type of quad, they usually have very lean builds. We'll just have to see in the next few years whether the current crop of ladies doing the move will keep them. I hope they do, because I'd really not like to see a revolving door of 16 year old world champions who peak for a year or two.

Alina seems to be challenging that trend, she looks to have made it through puberty with jumps not just intact but better than they were last season.
Liza is still up there with the best of them despite being something of a "veteran" now :biggrin:

I very much hope the current crop of young talented Russians and non-Russians can do the same.

flanker · Oct 8, 2019

el henry said:
There is every reason, related to health, why the age for skating in the Olympics should be raised. In my opinion, if there is any doubt, one errs on the side of health. Full stop.

Arguments (directed to me) that you are prejudiced against a country or against a coach or against a skater shows that they've never read any of my posts. I'm crushed

Arguments directed to "some people" are meaningless. (ETA: because they cannot be answered and appear to be directed at phantoms) and may be disregarded.

That is all.

Nope. There is not. BTW if health should truly be the cause, than dangerous techniques should be banned, not age limit raised, because the danger would prevail no matter the senior or junior competition. This claim just doesn't make any sense :dance2:

el henry · Oct 8, 2019

flanker said:
Nope. There is not. BTW if health should truly be the cause, than dangerous techniques should be banned, not age limit raised, because the danger would prevail no matter the senior or junior competition. This claim just doesn't make any sense :dance2:

Well, of course that is your opinion, and my opinion is that is makes perfect sense, because all the technique in the world won't protect a young athlete:dance2:

But I don't think we are going to agree, so the discussion will continue. I do thank you for engaging directly, which I always find a more respectful and clear way of discussing issues.

flanker · Oct 8, 2019

el henry said:
Well, of course that is your opinion, and my opinion is that is makes perfect sense, because all the technique in the world won't protect a young athlete:dance2:

But I don't think we are going to agree, so the discussion will continue. I do thank you for engaging directly, which I always find a more respectful and clear way of discussing issues.

I would engage directly more often, but I've already explained some time ago that it somehow is not how the things work on GS. Too many bad experience with saying "this person claims this and here is why I disagree" than with "indirect statements". :shrug:

dante · Oct 8, 2019

The 15-16-year-old skaters have been winning the last few years not because they were younger, but because each of them is objectively stronger and better prepared than the precedessors. After the technical revolution ends and the PCS factor is adjusted, one will need both quads and artistry to win.

As for health, the square-cube law means that learning difficult elements is safer at younger ages.

drivingmissdaisy · Oct 8, 2019

flanker said:
Nope. There is not. BTW if health should truly be the cause, than dangerous techniques should be banned, not age limit raised, because the danger would prevail no matter the senior or junior competition. This claim just doesn't make any sense :dance2:

A lot of women suffered injuries, some career-ending, while training triples and 3-3s. Had the ISU banned triples due to the dangerous risks, we'd be watching programs full of doubles now. Quads are harder than triples and theoretically could increase the risk of serious physical ailments, but we don't know much yet since not that many women do quads. Miki Ando trained the 4S throughout her career and stayed relatively healthy, never missing a Nationals or GP event and only withdrawing from one Worlds.

VenusHalley · Oct 8, 2019

Age limits should be for protecting young people who are not on the same level with seniors and who naturally need to prepare for their further career. But it shouldn't limit those who are physically and mentally prepared for those competitions.

But just because girl can jump quads at 12 does not mean she is mentally ready to be competing with adults, be out there...

Look at what happened to Oksana Baiul. Sure, she could skate so pretty and outskate adults, but she should be with her however incomplete family, not in the big big world, at her age. And now imagine 12 years old could compete with adults, because they can jump them quads and do pretzel spins. Could they all handle the pressure, the criticism, the adult world?

Elucidus · Oct 8, 2019

gkelly said:
Given that, and given all the different sometimes conflicting goals that policies would be designed to address, what's the best solution?

I think it's a mistake to take only one or two of those bullet points into account and to ignore all the rest when setting policies.

I think you forgot three important bullet points from your list:

1) ability to maintain high enough motivation to continue career - spending money, health and time, which could be spent on something else - without any significant returns (which is a given in junior status) and without any guarantee of future success - for a long time
2) accumulating nature of injuries and damage to health - the longer one's career is
3) natural changes to some woman types of bodies after 16-18 years - which makes impossible to keep (in healthy way) neccessary weight to be competitive - whether they want it or not

flanker · Oct 8, 2019

drivingmissdaisy said:
A lot of women suffered injuries, some career-ending, while training triples and 3-3s. Had the ISU banned triples due to the dangerous risks, we'd be watching programs full of doubles now. Quads are harder than triples and theoretically could increase the risk of serious physical ailments, but we don't know much yet since not that many women do quads. Miki Ando trained the 4S throughout her career and stayed relatively healthy, never missing a Nationals or GP event and only withdrawing from one Worlds.

As was stated many times, sport at the top level is never without risking of health, and yes, there are and there will be injuries. But that's not much a question whether the age eligiblity for senior competitions would be 15 or 18 years. Even if we would come to the conclusion that quads are too much risky, than the question would be whether quads should be trained and jumped or not and not in what competition incl. the olympics. And I consider olympic games as the top competition where the top performances should be shown and top results should be scoced (I would not like to see junior worlds with higher scores than olympic games). But for now, as you say, we have no data that would support the concern that quads qould be more dangerous than 3-3s. It is of course also the matter of proper training, technique and devices that weren't at the disposal 20 years ago and now are (like e.g. those fishing rods amd harnesses).

And just like dante have said and I also mentioned it in one of the last comments, it is not about we would have permanent "youngster revolution" now. It's just that those young skaters have those devices and training methods at disposal, while the older generation haven't. This state is temporary as with any new step. Sooner or later the quads will be much more usual in ladies skating (if rules won't spoil that somehow) and I don't think that those teen skaters who are about to "dominate" now will lose their jumps and then lose competitions to the next generation. Things will settle down soon.

Edwin · Oct 8, 2019

VenusHalley said:
But just because girl can jump quads at 12 does not mean she is mentally ready to be competing with adults, be out there...

Look at what happened to Oksana Baiul. Sure, she could skate so pretty and outskate adults, but she should be with her however incomplete family, not in the big big world, at her age. And now imagine 12 years old could compete with adults, because they can jump them quads and do pretzel spins. Could they all handle the pressure, the criticism, the adult world?

Just wait for some grasshoppers and stick insects from DPKR and CHN to enter the flea circus to compete with those Russians for the upper tier in figure skating, LOL.

As far as we know, all the current very young and young Russian quadsters and trikselistas come from normal families, with well grounded parents, some of which have been or are still in sports. The days of orphans and poor children from even poorer single parent situations being 'taken care of' by the state (read USSR here) are long past and will never return.

Notice how the Moscow rinks that are now in power shield their young proteges? Notice how none of these kids waste their time on useless to downright dangerous social media? When a still active skater starts to do daily live streams, you know he or she is on the way out.

Still the long term health effects of heavy acrobatic or athletic elements on skaters aren't well know. Spinal column, pelvis, hip, knee, ankle problems -caused by jumping quads and triksels- haven't been diagnosed yet. The population is simply too small, but the skaters from Khrustalniy are carefully monitored and checked medically at every Novogorsk camp, and probably in between too, using the Sambo-70 facilities and doctors available to them. Their trainers don't take unnecessary risks with their working Capital, with a Capital C.

When properly trained, i.e. using padded pants and/or the harness until the ultra-si is stable and confident, when the muscles, joints and ligaments are thoroughly adapted to the loads and forces, when the athlete concerned looks after his/her weight, has the right mindset and concentration not to 'chuck' her ultra-si's there are little problems.

Plus, why is nobody criticising Liu or her parents/trainers/directors/federation? Why is all the negative attention directed to skaters from this one rink?

Mathman · Oct 8, 2019

dante said:
As for health, the square-cube law means that learning difficult elements is safer at younger ages.

Still, I think there is reason at least to debate the issue of whether overtraining immature bodies causes not only shorter athleteic careers but also lifelong health issues.

In the United States, "Little League Baseball' is still popular for youngsters. There are rules that say a pitcher is not allowed to train a curve ball at too young an age (and that later they are allowed to throw only so many pitches in practice and in games).

Why? Because throwing a curve ball prematurely and permanently damages a child's developing elbow joint.

People also ask, why do female gymnasts have squeaky Minnie-Mouse voices (and may also have brittle bones) when they grow up? The culprit seems to be such intensive training at too young an age, which short-circuits normal growth and development.

Is it really worth it to win a gold medal and the applause of adult onlookers?

colormyworld240 · Oct 8, 2019

Where is the number 18 coming from? Some girls are still growing when they're 18. If we want to erase the advantage of "pre-pubescent bodies" it should at least be increased to 21. But of course, if we're talking about genetic advantages, there will always be girls with a greater advantage than others. Since this is about quads, I'm sure the advantage comes with a balance of strength to jump high and far, and leans to rotate fast along with non-genetic advantages like technique. How do we know Sasha is only landing quads because she has a certain body type - and it seems like people have an issue with thin bodies. Anna is much more slim, and yet doesn't have the same success.

As for the actual competition, it's not that pre-pubescent girls can land quads while older girls cannot. It's that Sasha is landing quads at 15, while other girls couldn't when they were 15. If you take away the age advantage, Sasha would still be winning over Alina, Evgenia, Liza, etc. when they were 15. They didn't land the quads, Sasha did. It's not because she is younger, it's because she is able to do it and they weren't/aren't.

"Can they do this when they're 22" vs. "Could others do this when they were 15" is the same thing. One is not more impressive than the other.

Also has there been any study on whether younger skaters doing quads are more prone to injury? Since the discussion is based on Eteri's girls here, Alena was the one who was injured - the girl without the quad. And Anna was injured on a triple and not a quad; have there been any quad related injuries in the group? Of course the sample size is small here, so have there been any reports of Gogolev being injured on a quad, or Yuzu/Nathan/Shoma/Boyang injuring themselves on quads when they were 18 or younger vs. 18 and older? If the concern is indeed the health of skaters.

flanker · Oct 8, 2019

Mathman said:
Still, I think there is reason at least to debate the issue of whether overtraining immature bodies causes not only shorter athleteic careers but also lifelong health issues.

In the United States, "Little League Baseball' is still popular for youngsters. There are rules that say a pitcher is not allowed to train a curve ball at too young an age (and that later they are allowed to throw only so many pitches in practice and in games).

Why? Because throwing a curve ball prematurely and permanently damages a child's developing elbow joint.

People also ask, why do female gymnasts have squeaky Minnie-Mouse voices (and may also have brittle bones) when they grow up? The culprit seems to be such intensive training at too young an age, which short-circuits normal growth and development.

Is it really worth it to win a gold medal and the applause of adult onlookers?

It's good to talk about it but instead of idle unproductive talks it would be useful to have some data. I wouldn't mind at all if e.g. ISu would make some stude with long-term observation of certain skaters and how the training is or is not marking their bodies. But just banning group of people in particular age-limit from competing on senior level is not productive to me. I don't know, in tennis there are also very young people below 18, incl. ladies, who are competing with seasoned players, and I don't think that tennis wouldn't be demanding and without injuries.

Mathman · Oct 8, 2019

flanker said:
It's good to talk about it but instead of idle unproductive talks it would be useful to have some data. .

I actually believe that we are not so ignorant as we pretend, in terms of nutritional science, adolescent growth and development, and the like.

Figure skating is probably too small an enterprise to support studies specific to this activity. But overall I do not think that there is a lack of data about health issues associated with premature intensive sports focus.

jenaj · Oct 8, 2019

colormyworld240 said:
Where is the number 18 coming from? Some girls are still growing when they're 18. If we want to erase the advantage of "pre-pubescent bodies" it should at least be increased to 21. But of course, if we're talking about genetic advantages, there will always be girls with a greater advantage than others. Since this is about quads, I'm sure the advantage comes with a balance of strength to jump high and far, and leans to rotate fast along with non-genetic advantages like technique. How do we know Sasha is only landing quads because she has a certain body type - and it seems like people have an issue with thin bodies. Anna is much more slim, and yet doesn't have the same success.

Girls are not growing taller when they are 18. They might be filling out more overall but not in height. And no normal girl is pre-pubescent at age 18. I personally don't think they should change the age to 18. What I do think is that more weight needs to be given to artistry, which would give some advantages to more mature skaters. Right now, the balance is too skewed towards tech. Even PCS is around 50% based on tech, when one considers the weight given to things like transitions and one-foot skating. Those are not inherently artistic moves (though they can be). But the fact is, nothing is going to change in this Olympic cycle, so the advantage goes to the young jumpers, whether or not it is a winning strategy for the long term.

Mathman · Oct 8, 2019

colormyworld240 said:
Of course the sample size is small here, so have there been any reports of Gogolev being injured on a quad, or Yuzu/Nathan/Shoma/Boyang injuring themselves on quads when they were 18 or younger vs. 18 and older.

As a sample of size one

, Nathan Chen as a youngster had all kinds of problems related to growth plates in his legs, etc. He had to take some time off from training periodically. Not just related to quads. But ...

I believe that he hit his first quad in competition in U.S. Sectionals at age 16. He sustained a "growth related heel injury" that forced him to water down his program at U.S. Nationals.

The next year (age 17) he did a bunch of quads at Nationals. Then in the Gala he tried a quad and came down with a hip injury which required surgery and kept him off the World team.

He seems to be OK now, though, having achieved his full growth.

Happy Skates · Oct 8, 2019

el henry said:
There is every reason, related to health, why the age for skating in the Olympics should be raised. In my opinion, if there is any doubt, one errs on the side of health. Full stop.

Arguments (directed to me) that you are prejudiced against a country or against a coach or against a skater shows that they've never read any of my posts. I'm crushed

Arguments directed to "some people" are meaningless. (ETA: because they cannot be answered and appear to be directed at phantoms) and may be disregarded.

That is all.

There is risk of injury when training triples, or quads at an older age, etc. Plus, younger girls will still train difficult elements even if they're not old enough to compete in Seniors. I mean look at Liu, Trusova, Shcherbakova, Valieva, Akatieva. All of them trained these difficult elements way before being eligible for seniors. An age limit wouldn't stop them. Plus, I find it immoral to limit someone who's competitive with the best in the world from competing at worlds and the Olympics. And I'm not talking about anyone specific, but there have definitely been 15 year olds who are deserving of winning World or Olympic titles. You can't rob someone of that opportunity if they are competitive at that moment in my opinion. Plus, they/their families put so much money into this sport, so delaying the time to getting prize money may drive deserving skaters out of the sport too early. Not everyone can afford to continue the sport into adulthood without the opportunity to earn prize money like that. If they're able to earn prize money, at least they'll be able to afford the hip surgery when they need it, where as if they can't, they might be left with injuries and no titles, money or success to come of it.

Baron Vladimir · Oct 8, 2019

Biologicaly, you can't say that someone is immature at the end of 16, you just can't. Individual development can vary, but in general, puberty period is over at 16 (with boys it may last a year longer). Now, we can try as a society to find a specific norm to say when is someone mature or immature, but that social debate just doesn't make sense. Because you can have 'immature individuals' at their 30. And at first because you are denying some young people their rights to be involved in the society at the level they deserve to be given by their nature. To claim that someone who is 26 must be more mature/clever/better than someone who is 16 is just a prejudice (and even discrimination). After end of puberty (at the age of 16) people are evolutionary on the same level as adults. Do they need to behave like adults is another question. As the question that general expirience/ageing make people more mature. Also a bs. Because after 16, only specific experience is important for 'growing' :eek:

topic:

colormyworld240 · Oct 8, 2019

Mathman said:
As a sample of size one , Nathan Chen as a youngster had all kinds of problems related to growth plates in his legs, etc. He had to take some time off from training periodically. Not just related to quads. But ...

I believe that he hit his first quad in competition in U.S. Sectionals at age 16. He sustained a "growth related heel injury" that forced him to water down his program at U.S. Nationals.

The next year (age 17) he did a bunch of quads at Nationals. Then in the Gala he tried a quad and came down with a hip injury which required surgery and kept him off the World team.

He seems to be OK now, though, having achieved his full growth.

Right. But the problem with growth plates in his legs - is that related to jumping quads? As in is this an issue with him that was caused by over training quads or a growth related issue? Of course there are many injuries that are related to jumping at all, or spinning, and that's a risk to anyone in the sport. Alina had growth related pains as well but that wasn't due to jumping quads. Anna Shcherbakova has had multiple injuries, and though she does jump a quad, those weren't related to or caused by jumping quads.

Women and the Quad

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

Mishaminion

flanker

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

flanker

dante

a dark lord

drivingmissdaisy

VenusHalley

Elucidus

Match Penalty

flanker

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!

Mathman

colormyworld240

flanker

Mathman

jenaj

Mathman

Happy Skates

Baron Vladimir

colormyworld240

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