Women and the Quad

moriel · Oct 9, 2019

Mathman said:
Yes, certainly there have been many youthful champions in the past. And in any endeavor youngsters with precocious talent will come along.

What I was more interested in, though, was whether changes in the scoring system tilt the balance toward skills that children are naturally good at (or at least easily trained, compared to older competitors). Maybe rotating really fast in the air is just something that young bodies can learn to do and old bodies can't.

I think that the evidence so far shows that no lady has started learning how to rotate four times in the air after age 15. Someone like Alexandra Trusova (a one-of-a-kind talent in any case) may be able to do more quads per program and to add other types of quads as she gets older. But so far, it looks like 13 or 14 at the latest is the time to begin.

This is what I mean by referring to this particular skill a young person's game.

But mybe not. Elizaveta Tuktamysheva mastered the triple Axel at a later age.

I guess we will have to wait and see how coaches respond. But it just seems to me, if I were a coach with a 12-year-old wiunderkind on my hands, that I would be tempted to look at the ISU Scale of Values, see: "Quad Lutz, 11.50 points," and take my cue from there. I am not saying whether that's good or bad, just that I believe that the sport will be different going forward.

Last time I looked, average podium age at worlds for ladies was kind of stable since the 80s.

moriel · Oct 9, 2019

gkelly said:
When did Elizabet Tursynbaeva learn her quad?
Didn't she start working on it when she was around 12?

There has been talk of Tursynbaeva's quad for quite a while now, so I don't think she first attempted it last year.
At any rate, imho, Elizabet is one of those exceptions each rule has, because even right now she has a body of a 12 years old.

Tuktamysheva started working on her 3A quite early too, at some point she shared a video (currently down) where she was jumping a 3A at 12, so she could have started training it even earlier.

colormyworld240 · Oct 9, 2019

gkelly said:
Aside from the physical demands of elite training and competition, which may be similar at either junior or senior level, I think the idea is that the psychological demands of senior competition are much higher. Seniors who compete at Worlds, Euros/4Cs, Grand Prix, or Olympics may be watched by many millions of viewers on video and by many thousands in a packed arena. Those who have some success will likely be featured and hyped by media in their home countries, expected by fans as well as federations to bring home medals, keep or earn more spots for next year and to make more and more media appearances. (And also more likely to attract rabid fans/stalkers/bullying detractors -- though ideally no skater of any age would have to deal with that.)

Skaters competing at junior level tend to have a much more low-key, under-the-radar experience. I think the idea is that lower expectations and lower demands outside of the actual training is more conducive to youngsters' mental health.

Yes, that generally seems to be the case.

Although 17- or 25-year-old bodies aren't "old" in the same way that middle-aged and geriatric bodies are.

And in fact 17- or 25-year-old men tend to be better jumpers than 13- or 14-year-old boys, probably because broader shoulders and more developed musculature that come naturally from maturing and training from a boy to a young man are just as useful for jumping as a narrow circumference. Although it is true that some men, including highly fit skaters who were strong jumpers as juniors, do just grow too big in height and/or width to jump as efficiently as adults.

But on average, probably a majority of male skaters jump better at 20 than at 15. Whereas a majority of women do not. Because the mature female body is less conducive to in-air rotation than either the early adolescent female body or the adult male body.

There are, of course, always exceptions. But does the sport want to build its requirements around exceptions and leave no space for the majority of elite-track girls to remain competitive as they become young women?

When did Elizabet Tursynbaeva learn her quad?

Didn't she start working on it when she was around 12?

Which is why I would love to build more options into the Scale of Values and let coaches see which options work best for each individual skater.

I think the bigger psychological demand depends on national competition, and also how much potential you have. Alysa, to me, is by far the most hyped up American lady right now, and the expectations put on her are much more than any of the ladies competing in seniors. No other American senior lady has the expectations of landing 3As, quads, skating cleanly, and winning international medals as Alysa. And this was happening even before she made her international debut. I'd argue she has the most pressure on her. Same with Kamila, who looks like the most stressed out Russian lady, much more than the seniors. The hype around her is huge as are the expectations (same with Sasha). What they have are expectations because they stand out based on what they're doing now. And that would be no different if the age limit for seniors was raised to 18. I really don't agree that entering senior competition at a younger age increases the psychological burden. Take 2 skaters who were at the same age; Evgenia and Maria, when they were competing together. Obviously Evgenia had much more pressure on her than Maria, as she had the bigger potential. Same with if Alysa were to go into seniors right now along with an unknown 11 American girl. Alysa would still have to deal with more pressure, regardless of age.

Baron Vladimir · Oct 9, 2019

Exactly. It's not that being in different age can produce less or more pressure during the skating competitions. The source of a skaters pressure is in her/his environment, begining with parents, and onto federations, fans, society and media. For a better skaters health, its the environment which need to be changed at first, not the skaters, their food habits or their age. But after all, its individual choice to be (or not be) in that environment, compete and live with all the positives and negatives it brings. In todays society it is especially hard to be an elite athlete, and while it can bring you a lot of joy, it will bring you the exact amount of sacrifice with it :eek:

topic:

Decoder · Oct 9, 2019

moriel said:
For me, the longer you train, the more you injure yourself is pretty obvious, honestly, but I will draw it just in case.
1. There is a certain injury risk. Do you agree that the chance of breaking a leg jumping is higher if you jump 1000 times and lower if you jump only 10 times? The longer you train and compete on elite level, more injuries you will have overall.
2. Healing gets worse with age, things take longer to heal, things don't heal perfectly anymore. It is a major difference to break a bone at 14-15 and break a bone at 25. And break a bone at 35.
3. Injury effect is cumulative, so having tons of small injuries is not nice either. The longer you skate/train, more small injuries you will have.

So, where the age limit comes into all this? To be successful in FS, skaters got to start training early, regardless of the age limit. If you raise it from 15 to 18, you basically force skaters to skate on elite level for 3 extra years before they can even achieve anything. Right now, they can win stuff at 15-16-17-18 and quit. With higher age limit, they will *have to* skate up to 18 in juniors, on elite level (because it is not like they would be able to take it easier in juniors, just because they are juniors), before they can compete on major international events. This is 3 more years for them to break bones and strain backs.

And again, the only way those 3 extra years in juniors will protect the junior's health is by forcing them to quit because no big results and expensive training. The ones that stay will train as hard as they currently do.

So i see it like this: raising the age limit has no relation with health, because they will still train on elite level (same as current juniors do, i mean, do you really think that Liu is training in a much healthier way than girls who are 18 years old right now, and being in junior somehow magically protects her health? Does it really makes any difference that she is a junior and not a senior? Would it make any difference for Trusova if she would be a junior this year? She wouldn't be training quads as a junior?). But it has the potential to damage more skater's health by forcing them to skate longer. Result: higher age limit = bad for health.

It seems that I am reading a small but well-written paper. The reasoning is convincing, and the result is well-supported. :thumbsup:

drivingmissdaisy · Oct 9, 2019

moriel said:
Tuktamysheva started working on her 3A quite early too, at some point she shared a video (currently down) where she was jumping a 3A at 12, so she could have started training it even earlier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdkDLBmBFBU

Sugar Coated · Oct 9, 2019

Alex65 said:
Perhaps my memory failed me here. Sorry. However, am I right about the reason raising age? If you follow gymnastics, you should know that. I just reproduced from memory the information from the articles I read earlier and, as you can see, I can forget something.

Not an expert but I was working off information from wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_requirements_in_gymnastics#Reasons_for_age_restrictions

So health had nothing to do with raising the age limit in gymnastics?

MissBeeFarm · Oct 10, 2019

Alex65 said:
Perhaps my memory failed me here. Sorry. However, am I right about the reason raising age? If you follow gymnastics, you should know that. I just reproduced from memory the information from the articles I read earlier and, as you can see, I can forget something.

The official reason has always been protecting the health of the gymnasts. However, I'm pretty sure politics has played a huge part and therefore the age falsifications (especially Kim Gwang Suk) are a reason "behind the scenes".

I'd like to add that there is currently no discussion of raising the age limit in gymnastics. So basically they have the same age limit as in Figure Skating and it is totally fine for everyone. However, gymnasts are currently getting older and have longer careers lasting many years and even many quads (e.g. Mustafina, Biles, Paseka). I bet if younger gymnasts were beating the older one's, leading to a shifting of the demographics similar to the 80s, we'd have this discussion in gymnastics as well. It's a discussion that pops up whenever the status quo is dangered by competitors generally younger than former medalists.

dante · Oct 10, 2019

At 13, most people become emotionally independent from their parents - a teenager (at least in our hemisphere) can sometimes tell his parents to go to hell. So, on one hand, parents' abusiveness is less likely to benefit the results, on the other hand an athlete needs a chance to win something substantial to retain his motivation.

By 18 most people become stable enough to be trusted with cars, drugs, guns and ballot papers, but it has nothing to do with sports. Teenagers don't do elite sports as an easy way to escape from their problems.

As for the physical health, I think the biggest danger is that less experienced coaches may make a cargo cult from how they perceive Eteri's methods. Like, pushing quads without special physical excercises or medical supervision.

Alex65 · Oct 10, 2019

MissBeeFarm said:
The official reason has always been protecting the health of the gymnasts. However, I'm pretty sure politics has played a huge part and therefore the age falsifications (especially Kim Gwang Suk) are a reason "behind the scenes".

I'd like to add that there is currently no discussion of raising the age limit in gymnastics. So basically they have the same age limit as in Figure Skating and it is totally fine for everyone. However, gymnasts are currently getting older and have longer careers lasting many years and even many quads (e.g. Mustafina, Biles, Paseka). I bet if younger gymnasts were beating the older one's, leading to a shifting of the demographics similar to the 80s, we'd have this discussion in gymnastics as well. It's a discussion that pops up whenever the status quo is dangered by competitors generally younger than former medalists.

Thank you for the comprehensive information on the subject matter.

andromache · Oct 10, 2019

moriel said:
And how exactly changing age limits will keep them out of elite sports and let them be children?
FS is a sport where, whenever you compete on senior level or not, you got to train on elite level since childhood if you want to compete at elite level as adult.
Please do tell us how raising the age limit will keep 10-12-14-16 years old from TRAINING on elite level. Which is exactly the full time job you are talking about. Except they won't be paid for it, I guess that is what will make it not be a full time job?

In theory, they will want to be sure they do not overtrain as juniors so that they can be successful when they are old enough to compete as seniors. They will not want to push their bodies too hard as juniors and risk ruining their bodies for their senior careers.

Can we guarantee this would happen? Of course not. All I am doing is speculating and trying to be logical.

We will learn a lot over the next 2-3 Olympic quads, when we will see what happens to the 3A girls, Kamila, Alysa Liu, and others. Maybe they will all have long, successful, healthy careers and this worrying will be for nothing? I certainly hope so.

moriel · Oct 10, 2019

andromache said:
In theory, they will want to be sure they do not overtrain as juniors so that they can be successful when they are old enough to compete as seniors. They will not want to push their bodies too hard as juniors and risk ruining their bodies for their senior careers.

Can we guarantee this would happen? Of course not. All I am doing is speculating and trying to be logical.

We will learn a lot over the next 2-3 Olympic quads, when we will see what happens to the 3A girls, Kamila, Alysa Liu, and others. Maybe they will all have long, successful, healthy careers and this worrying will be for nothing? I certainly hope so.

I don't see what you described happening in juniors now, and I don't understand why you expect that for some reason they will train less if they have to stay in juniors longer.

andromache · Oct 10, 2019

moriel said:
I don't see what you described happening in juniors now, and I don't understand why you expect that for some reason they will train less if they have to stay in juniors longer.

Timing. If someone starts being able to do quads around age 14 and enters seniors around age 15/16, obviously they want to peak when they enter seniors and train at that level of intensity. If you have to wait 4-5 years to enter seniors instead of 1-2 years, how realistic is it to be able to train at the maximum level of intensity for 4-5 years before they're even seniors? There might be motivation to pace themselves accordingly.

Again, this is just in theory.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 10, 2019

andromache said:
In theory, they will want to be sure they do not overtrain as juniors so that they can be successful when they are old enough to compete as seniors. They will not want to push their bodies too hard as juniors and risk ruining their bodies for their senior careers.

Can we guarantee this would happen? Of course not. All I am doing is speculating and trying to be logical.

We will learn a lot over the next 2-3 Olympic quads, when we will see what happens to the 3A girls, Kamila, Alysa Liu, and others. Maybe they will all have long, successful, healthy careers and this worrying will be for nothing? I certainly hope so.

I'm hoping it will be less of an issue than in the past. Skaters these days aren't necessarily training harder, they're training smarter.

BlueIcicle · Oct 10, 2019

Late to this forum but my two cents - I've been watching video of AlyssA Liu's quad Lutz and you'll see many comments along the lines of "wow! I could barely tell that was a quad! Amazing!" Which upon analyzing is not a positive comment when you look at the slomo repeats, Alyssa is basically rotating 270 degrees on the ice before her body is in the air, meaning she is actually only completing 3.25 revolutions (maximum) in the air. Compare this to Hanyu who almost always gets 4 full revolutions.

moriel · Oct 10, 2019

BlueIcicle said:
Late to this forum but my two cents - I've been watching video of AlyssA Liu's quad Lutz and you'll see many comments along the lines of "wow! I could barely tell that was a quad! Amazing!" Which upon analyzing is not a positive comment when you look at the slomo repeats, Alyssa is basically rotating 270 degrees on the ice before her body is in the air, meaning she is actually only completing 3.25 revolutions (maximum) in the air. Compare this to Hanyu who almost always gets 4 full revolutions.

Well yeah tbh in that specific case

I personally would give Trusova positive GOE on her good 4Lz attempts, Scherbakova - 0 to negative, and Liu a < or a downgrade depending on attempt.

readernick · Oct 10, 2019

BlueIcicle said:
Late to this forum but my two cents - I've been watching video of AlyssA Liu's quad Lutz and you'll see many comments along the lines of "wow! I could barely tell that was a quad! Amazing!" Which upon analyzing is not a positive comment when you look at the slomo repeats, Alyssa is basically rotating 270 degrees on the ice before her body is in the air, meaning she is actually only completing 3.25 revolutions (maximum) in the air. Compare this to Hanyu who almost always gets 4 full revolutions.

I think all the girls prerotate and rely on fast rotation for the 4Lz, not just Alysa. Trusova's 4T is good sometimes. Valieva's 4T is beautiful. But, I don't think any of the ladies' 4Lzs are positive GOE worthy. However, it is good they are trying to bring new difficulty to the sport.

BlueIcicle · Oct 10, 2019

readernick said:
I think all the girls prerotate and rely on fast rotation for the 4Lz, not just Alysa. Trusova's 4T is good sometimes. Valieva's 4T is beautiful. But, I don't think any of the ladies' 4Lzs are positive GOE worthy. However, it is good they are trying to bring new difficulty to the sport.

I'm angry at the judging system not the skaters themselves. If other skaters see people getting positive GOE on jumps with improper or poor technique it only incentives them to learn whatever boosts the points, and not work on a quad Lutz for example with full revolutions and no full blade assist.

ec00834 · Oct 10, 2019

I love how people are so offended over judging when it comes to ladies' quads but when men have poor non-textbook technique it doesn't really matter. Sasha's quad lutz does not have "improper" technique and she definitely should not be receiving negative GOE for it

Elucidus · Oct 11, 2019

BlueIcicle said:
Late to this forum but my two cents - I've been watching video of AlyssA Liu's quad Lutz and you'll see many comments along the lines of "wow! I could barely tell that was a quad! Amazing!" Which upon analyzing is not a positive comment when you look at the slomo repeats, Alyssa is basically rotating 270 degrees on the ice before her body is in the air, meaning she is actually only completing 3.25 revolutions (maximum) in the air. Compare this to Hanyu who almost always gets 4 full revolutions.

No, you are wrong. Actually Liu never did 3.25 rotations in the air. To do it she needs to land fully rotated quad - which she never was able to do. All her quads have less than 3 rotations in the air.

ec00834 said:
I love how people are so offended over judging when it comes to ladies' quads but when men have poor non-textbook technique it doesn't really matter. Sasha's quad lutz does not have "improper" technique and she definitely should not be receiving negative GOE for it

Yep, exactly this. Unless those people will begin to complain more often and more strongly about Shoma and Zhou quads first and foremost and/or have long history of such complains long before Trusove entered the scene - I will never see them as anything but sexists hypocrites.

Women and the Quad

moriel

moriel

colormyworld240

Baron Vladimir

Decoder

drivingmissdaisy

Sugar Coated

MissBeeFarm

dante

a dark lord

Alex65

andromache

moriel

andromache

CanadianSkaterGuy

BlueIcicle

moriel

readernick

BlueIcicle

ec00834

Elucidus

Match Penalty

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