Women and the Quad | Page 71 | Golden Skate

Women and the Quad

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
OK, I have a question. Why don't figure skaters break their ankles?

If you land on an edge (instead of flat-footed on both feet), doesn't that mean your ankle is slightly rocked over to the side when you come down with all that force?

If you look at animals that are adapted to jumping -- a kangaroo has huge "feet" to distribute the weight over, plus he also relies on his tail. Frogs actually land 4-footed with quite a bit of the force absorbed by the forelimbs.
 

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
That’s probably due both to lateral stiffness of the shaft of the booth and the way it is laced snug, but not too tight.

Boots are rated by stiffness, top boots are triksel and quad rated, jumps where the risk of rough landings is probably greatest.

A real skater that competes at least with solid triples should best answer this question, but we might not have one of those on board.
 

JSM

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 11, 2011
Not all of the force goes to the ankle - you land first towards the front of the blade/ toepick then come down on the outside edge, transferring the weight slightly backwards on the blade. Force from the landing is absorbed by the knee and hip as well as the ankle. Others will chime in with a more scientific explanation I’m sure.

Also editing to say: landing flat footed is not gentle on the body - it reverberates through your bones and I feel it in my lower back, too.
 

Sugar Coated

Final Flight
Joined
Apr 20, 2018
Basketball and volleyball players wear ankle braces and tape for protection. But I imagine the stiffness of the boot provides even stronger protection for rolled ankles. And it seems like the hips and legs absorb most of the impact on falls, not the ankles. Although I do imagine stress fractures in the foot are more common and this might include the ankle bones.
 

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
Record Breaker
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Jan 5, 2019
Basketball and volleyball players wear ankle braces and tape for protection. But I imagine the stiffness of the boot provides even stronger protection for rolled ankles. And it seems like the hips and legs absorb most of the impact on falls, not the ankles. Although I do imagine stress fractures in the foot are more common and this might include the ankle bones.

Not all of the force goes to the ankle - you land first towards the front of the blade/ toepick then come down on the outside edge, transferring the weight slightly backwards on the blade. Force from the landing is absorbed by the knee and hip as well as the ankle. Others will chime in with a more scientific explanation I’m sure.

Also editing to say: landing flat footed is not gentle on the body - it reverberates through your bones and I feel it in my lower back, too.

I wasn't clear enough, I should have said only lateral protection against spraining and twisting, though the snug lacing also restricts longitudinal movement of the lower leg relative to the foot. Is this restricting or enhancing the 'soft knees' and push (толчок) of figure skaters, as compared to the 'stroke' of speed skaters on long blades?

Zheleznyakov wrote in his article on physical training of skaters that strong calve muscles and even strong ankle muscles still provide for considerable lift when trained and 'fired' properly.

You often see chips of ice flying way high and far on landing of some jumps, yet on other skaters' landings there isn't even snow ...

That's why I so much would like to see a proper biomechanics analysis of Alyona's superb triksels, and on Aleksandra's quads for the same reason. For these skaters are venturing in unknown territory for girls and women, and there are many more skaters now training ultra-si, and not only in Khrustalniy? Though their production line is probably running smoothly, keeping Rozanov both busy and fit ;-)
 

JSM

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 11, 2011
Muscle strength and timing, IMO, because you need to know when to check your rotation coming out of the jump and the muscle strength (and muscle memory) to actually do it. One of the improvements in modern skating I think is the attention the entire body is getting in off ice training. On ice practice isn’t enough for triples and quads.

Would love to see more studies done as well.
 

JSM

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 11, 2011
I wasn't clear enough, I should have said only lateral protection against spraining and twisting, though the snug lacing also restricts longitudinal movement of the lower leg relative to the foot. Is this restricting or enhancing the 'soft knees' and push (толчок) of figure skaters, as compared to the 'stroke' of speed skaters on long blades?

In regards to the boots specifically, too stiff boots, as I’m sure we all know, absolutely can lead to injuries. You need to be able to bend. Edea boots tend to be stiffer than traditional leather but still allow for forward movement and ankle flexion.
 

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
In regards to the boots specifically, too stiff boots, as I’m sure we all know, absolutely can lead to injuries. You need to be able to bend. Edea boots tend to be stiffer than traditional leather but still allow for forward movement and ankle flexion.

How is that stiffness achieved actually, of not a cobbler's trade secret? Are those boots more of a rigid shell in some kind of plastic, or carbon fiber composite covered with thin shoe leather for aesthetics? It has to be light weight, strong, durable and long lasting under load. Alyona's Edea Piano's have these fabric inserts in the ankle part, probably for some longitudinal flexibility and comfort re perspiration and 'breathing' of the foot as it swells when worked hard.

Are these boots thermo formed?

Do skaters need liner socks to prevent chafing their skin round the shafts' opening?

These boots look superb and with a matching set of blades are around Euro 1000 overhere. Champions deserve such kit and win using it, so a necessary expense.
 

JSM

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 11, 2011
Edea’s website will bring a wealth of info, but in general, they are not leather at all, but synthetic materials (some models are vegan friendly), are heat molded, elite skaters go through multiple pairs per year, and most skaters wear sock linings and/or bunga pads in their boots . :)
 

Edwin

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Record Breaker
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Jan 5, 2019
Here are some photos with Alyona from Finlandia: http://photos.phantomkabocha.com/FigureSkating/Finlandia2019/AlenaKostornaia/index.html

You can see there is still some play in the ankle and foot allowed by those Piano's. And they are spotless, no chafing marks at all, despite she's been riding them since May or something, but perhaps this is her competition pair, and she has another training pair or is breaking in a spare pair for just in case. Obviously, the very best skaters don't chafe their boots ;-)

Statistics on which boots and blades the men, women and children that do quads and triksels might be interesting too.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
OK, I have a question. Why don't figure skaters break their ankles?

If you land on an edge (instead of flat-footed on both feet), doesn't that mean your ankle is slightly rocked over to the side when you come down with all that force?

In addition to other reasons mentioned, if you land on an edge and glide out of the jump on a running edge, then some of the downward vertical force should be converted into horizontal momentum at the moment of landing, which is not the case for landing jumps on dry land.

Broken ankles do happen sometimes, but I think that like any acute jumping injuries it would be because of technique gone wrong. I.e., not gliding out on a running edge.
 

LenaRadiFan

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
Alexia Paganini has just posted two instagram stories where she lands (I think) a lutz and a salchow quad on harness. Of course this doesn't mean shes gonna land it in competition nor do we know how ready it is, but it certainly makes things interesting and I am definitely now looking more forward to her gp assignments, because IF she lands it, it will become very interesting.

Also I looked at her layout from autumn classic and she does indeed have both a 3lutz and 3sal at the beginning of her free,,,,,an indication for whats to come?
 

Orlov

Medalist
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Alexia Paganini has just posted two instagram stories where she lands (I think) a lutz and a salchow quad on harness. Of course this doesn't mean shes gonna land it in competition nor do we know how ready it is, but it certainly makes things interesting and I am definitely now looking more forward to her gp assignments, because IF she lands it, it will become very interesting.

Also I looked at her layout from autumn classic and she does indeed have both a 3lutz and 3sal at the beginning of her free,,,,,an indication for whats to come?

When people already stop talking about quads with "fishing pole"? I take it as spam in this thread.
 

LenaRadiFan

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
When people already stop talking about quads with "fishing pole"? I take it as spam in this thread.
Excuse me I am not in this thread a lot and I thought this was for updates for discussing quads and who could land them....no reason to go all snappy on me
 

Amei

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
When people already stop talking about quads with "fishing pole"? I take it as spam in this thread.

I disagree about the comment quoted as being spam; I personally don't consider that a skater 'has a jump' till they are putting it as planned content in a competition program, but on the other side - they have to practice them before they compete them and practice usually starts with the harness
 
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