Ladies and the triple Axel | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Ladies and the triple Axel

pohatta

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
I find it hard to believe that any of the top ladies would completely ignore the prospect of doing a 3A. If they don't train it, I think they still have an idea of their capabilities of doing it. Years ago Kiira Korpi trained 3A with Alexei Mishin for a while and said in an interview that she plans to do it in Vancouver. There must have been lots of plans like that.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
For a top skater, it is a very risky move with little upside unless it is a consistent jump. The fact is there are very few senior ladies older than 16 who can do a clean 7 triple program. The physical and mental effort of adding a triple axel means a skater will be more fatigued to do the rest of her program, which could ruin a program that a skater already struggles to perform cleanly.
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
For a top skater, it is a very risky move with little upside unless it is a consistent jump. The fact is there are very few senior ladies older than 16 who can do a clean 7 triple program. The physical and mental effort of adding a triple axel means a skater will be more fatigued to do the rest of her program, which could ruin a program that a skater already struggles to perform cleanly.
The 3A could be a good alternative for people with bad 3Lz though, especially considering the new edge rules. But of course, it's way harder than what the rules reward it for being. The only one it worked for is Mao.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
The other downside of the 3a is that when it fails, the skater gets rattled and the program suffers. OTOH, when it is successful, the skater gets a surge of adrenalin which can lead to mistakes in the remainder of the program.
 

yhmafan

Medalist
Joined
Apr 22, 2014
I have seen with a certain blog about Gracie Gold , which reports that she says she wants to challenge 3A this year or something like that.

I don't know but perhaps Gracie is too tall to do it?
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
In a recent interview, Kaetlyn Osmond spoke of wanting to add the 3a and perhaps a quad to her repertoire in the future. Given the spate of injuries just with trying for 3f+3t, that would seem to be pie in the sky.....
 

Amei

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
I have seen with a certain blog about Gracie Gold , which reports that she says she wants to challenge 3A this year or something like that.

I don't know but perhaps Gracie is too tall to do it?

She was inconsistent last year in competition - I'd like to see her be more consistent with clean routines (no falls) before starting to add a 3A.

But I have a question - training a 3A would that help improve overall jumping? Because it's more difficult wouldn't it help the other jumps get higher and easier to do.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
No, it won't help overall jumping. Axel mechanics are VERY different than every other jump
 

pohatta

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
I understand the different mechanics, but when I look at the evolution of jumps, it seems that the 3A threshold is a lot higher than the 2A ever was. In the 70s there were ladies who had no triples but did four 2As in a free skate. During the evolution from 0 triples to 7 triples it looks like the axel has stayed the same except for a few anomalies.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Just out of curiosity, is the mechanics different just because of the forward take off?

The "just because" is pretty important. It's a completely different trajectory and timing of when you pull into the jump (since you have to get an extra half rotation). You have to drive your free leg up and "through" the jump and then pull into a backspin. There's a reason why some skaters (Chan, Lambiel) are brilliant with quads but have axel issues.
 

cheerknithanson

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Country
United-States
I think it will be very exciting when more females will be able to do triple axels. And quads! Yes I know Miki Ando is the only one who has sucessfully landed it in a competition, but I believe in the future, more females will get them. Not now, but maybe in a few years. Triple axels, well, I think would take tons of training for females.

Just wondering, WHY is it harder for females to do triple axels and quads? If anyone could give me an answer, that will be great.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Just wondering, WHY is it harder for females to do triple axels and quads? If anyone could give me an answer, that will be great.

Women just have different bodies than men. Less muscle, more body fat. Anything involving quick fire muscles like sprinting or jumping, men will surpass women (on average). As far as many women consistently landing the jump, I don't think it will ever happen. Later this year will mark the 30th anniversary of Midori attempting the first 3A internationally (at the 1984 NHK). It took her 5 years after that first attempt to land it, and in the year leading up to that she was nailing 7 triple LPs with relative ease. It's just so much harder than the other triples and most of the top women don't jump nearly as well as Midori in 1988 before she landed the 3A.
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
Women just have different bodies than men. Less muscle, more body fat. Anything involving quick fire muscles like sprinting or jumping, men will surpass women (on average). As far as many women consistently landing the jump, I don't think it will ever happen. Later this year will mark the 30th anniversary of Midori attempting the first 3A internationally (at the 1984 NHK). It took her 5 years after that first attempt to land it, and in the year leading up to that she was nailing 7 triple LPs with relative ease. It's just so much harder than the other triples and most of the top women don't jump nearly as well as Midori in 1988 before she landed the 3A.
I will note, Midori at her technical peak was doing the same jumps as the men of her day, and often with better quality. With proper training and modern methods, I've no doubt that Midori could've had quads and been competitive with the men of any era. What let her down were the figures, and her nerves.

But, well, that was Midori. A one-of-a-kind, mega jumping talent that we might not ever see again. You don't need to be Midori to have a triple axel, though it'll be difficult for everyone to get it.

Imo, the current climate is good for the triple axel competition-wise (huge burst of young talent all trying to reach the top, which will convince some of them to try harder jumps). But it's bad rules-wise, since falls (what the men are prone at doing) are relatively less costly compared to URs (what the women are prone at).
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Midori was tiny -- about 4' 9 or10"-- and all muscle, and was quite consistent with her jumps. When she trained properly, 5' Tonya Harding was trim but muscular and landed the 3a regularly, but when she slacked off training, she gained weight, lost muscle and the 3a became iffy for her.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
It's like 99.9% of the ladies have agreed to exclude the 3A. It's over as pat of ladies skating.
 

cheerknithanson

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Country
United-States
So basically if female skaters work out more on their legs to get more muscle and lose fat, then it's more possible? I think we should keep it. Boundaries should be pushed and female skaters should try to push the boundaries and try to do harder skills. You guys are saying that they should keep it as it is. Well I'm sorry that I'm against everyone else's opinions (I realized that I sound mean here. I'm not trying to be. I'm sorry if it seems that way). But I'm a person that wants to see females push boundaries.
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
You guys are saying that they should keep it as it is. Well I'm sorry that I'm against everyone else's opinions (I realized that I sound mean here. I'm not trying to be. I'm sorry if it seems that way).
Pretty big generalization of the thread here. Many posters (myself included) do want to see more triple axels. The question is whether it'll actually happen, no matter how much we wish for it. ;)
 

cheerknithanson

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Country
United-States
Pretty big generalization of the thread here. Many posters (myself included) do want to see more triple axels. The question is whether it'll actually happen, no matter how much we wish for it. ;)

Well, I feel like if the women skaters do exercises to lose some of the body fat, it'll be easier for them. Maybe. I don't know. I'm not a skater. But I'm just thinking. Sigh. I hope women skaters find the right work-outs to lose body fat to be able to do more complicated jumps.
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
Well, I feel like if the women skaters do exercises to lose some of the body fat, it'll be easier for them. Maybe. I don't know. I'm not a skater. But I'm just thinking. Sigh. I hope women skaters find the right work-outs to lose body fat to be able to do more complicated jumps.
It's not that simple. These are elite athletes--I'm sure they all train very hard, and many of them do practice triple axels. If there currently exists an easy solution, they'd grab it in a heartbeat. But the human body does have its limits. This isn't just about the women, but the men too (hence why I'm not optimistic about 5-quad LPs being a reality).

In general, women don't have the jumping ability of men (with Midori Ito being the exception). But at the same time, I've noticed that the women tend to fall a lot less, since they have better balance. I'd like to see women should challenge hard jumps, and men work on having fewer splats, but it's a natural tendency we have to recognize.
 
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