2014 Rostelecom Cup Men's Free Skate 11/15 | Page 24 | Golden Skate

2014 Rostelecom Cup Men's Free Skate 11/15

Scovies

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
I think the problem is we have proof that if the penalty for falling/failing is "too harsh" they will stop pushing themselves. That proof is the quadrennial between 2006-2010. The proof is the fact that at the 2002 Games the men needed a quad in the short and two in the long just to even think about the top five, and then by 2010 a quad was no longer even necessary.

I started to say that in the 2002 Games, you couldn't fall on a quad and still end up on the podium, but then I remembered Plushenko. In 2002, you definitely couldn't fall five times in a free skate and walk away with a silver medal at a Grand Prix event.

They wanted to push the sport more technically after the Olympic results of 2010, and I understand that. But the rules as they are now have pushed things too far in the other direction IMO -- the splatfest at Sochi was a good example of that. Did any of the men complete two clean programs? I'm not sure what the best way to fix it would be. Increase the penalty for falls but increase the value of quads, maybe? There's got to be a happy medium somewhere.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I think the problem is we have proof that if the penalty for falling/failing is "too harsh" they will stop pushing themselves. That proof is the quadrennial between 2006-2010. The proof is the fact that at the 2002 Games the men needed a quad in the short and two in the long just to even think about the top five, and then by 2010 a quad was no longer even necessary.

I think your logic is backward. Leading up to 2002, the penalty for falling on a quad was very harsh indeed. All the top men rose to the challenge even so.

From 2006-2010 the penalty for falling on a quad was greatly lessened -- to the point that a few skaters were choreographing deliberate quad-falls into their programs to pick up the easy points. At the 2010 Olympics the penalty for falling on a quad was not very harsh at all.

Give the boys a challenge -- they will surprise and delight you. :yes:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
How about doubling a jump then?

A skater might double a quad, therefore not doing the jump intended (and in your theory get some points).

IMHO Intentions should not score any points, nor should unfulfilled intentions lose points. The only thing that counts is what you do. Max Aaron opened his program with two double Salchows. He got base value for two double Salchows, with a smattering of -1 GOEs on the first. This is what he did. This is what he got credit for. How could the scoring be otherwise?
 

AprilS

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
IMHO Intentions should not score any points, nor should unfulfilled intentions lose points. The only thing that counts is what you do. Max Aaron opened his program with two double Salchows. He got base value for two double Salchows, with a smattering of -1 GOEs on the first. This is what he did. This is what he got credit for. How could the scoring be otherwise?

I'm just pointing out how your quote can be taken in many ways, and disagreeing with the notion that certain aspects of the rules now are "against the spirit of sport." Even if such rules are disagreeable. ;)
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
I think the problem is we have proof that if the penalty for falling/failing is "too harsh" they will stop pushing themselves. That proof is the quadrennial between 2006-2010. The proof is the fact that at the 2002 Games the men needed a quad in the short and two in the long just to even think about the top five, and then by 2010 a quad was no longer even necessary.
But... that's not true. 6.0 was a high-risk, high-reward system. Men did quads because there was a reward for it. But there most certainly was a risk. You couldn't fall multiple times and win over clean opponents, even if they had easier jump content.

2006-2010 happened because the reward was gone. The energy expended on the quad was better off used doing easier, better-GOE-grabbing triple-triple combinations. Just ask Brian Joubert and Jeffrey Buttle at 2008 Worlds. Oh, and Dai's mistake at 2010 Olympics wasn't falling on the quad--it was underrotating it, losing BV on an already low-valued jump. Not that he would've won anyway, judging by the SP scores.

The ISU increased the value of the quad and changed how GOE worked, which was imo a good idea. This gave the reward back. Unfortunately, they didn't add the appropriate risk back. This doesn't just apply to quads. This applies to falls in general (which, contrary to popular belief, do not only occur because of quads).
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Under the 6.0 system, skaters didn't have to focus on fulfilling the full requirements of jumps. As long as they didn't fall so it was pretty, they could cheat on rotations and take off edges without ramification. Now only true jumps are credited. Skaters have to work harder and take on more risk because of the extra 1/4 or 1/2 turn they need to complete the jump. Technical panel is there to verify elements, with slow mo video if necessary. Not all is dependent on the judges' subjective impression anymore. Yeah, skaters have to bring it for real under scrutiny, and some elements become higher risk than before. The bar is much higher, especially now that one has to be all rounded to win.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I'm just pointing out how your quote can be taken in many ways, and disagreeing with the notion that certain aspects of the rules now are "against the spirit of sport." Even if such rules are disagreeable. ;)

All true. Sometimes I just get out of sorts.

But to me there is something about falling down that seems like it is in a different category of mistake. If you can skate all the way across the pond, while I fall down half-way to the other side, then you are a better skater than I am.

Now, if someone else skates halfway across, falls down, but then pops back up and starts doing fancy tricks, my hat is off to that guy, too.
 
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Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
All true. Sometimes I just get out of sorts.

But to me there is something about falling down that seems like it is in a different category of mistake. If you can skate all the way across the pond, while I fall down half-way to the other side, then you are a better skater than I am.

Now, if someone else skates halfway across, falls down, but then pops back up and starts doing fancy tricks, my hat is off to that guy, too.

I will give you a pass and even a :thumbsup: for falling down half way while doing fancy tricks all the way while the other guy just skates through the whole pond.
 

fairly4

Medalist
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
great job to all men Javier, sergei, michal.
misha wow. keep it up

Jason good job.
max--believe in yourself
 

Interspectator

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
great job to all men Javier, sergei, michal.
misha wow. keep it up

Jason good job.
max--believe in yourself

I found Cup of Russia to be the best men's event so far in this season's GP. Nobody was perfect but several skaters did much better than expected and were ENTERTAINING. Wonderful! :cheer2:

I wish Brezina and Misha could have shared the bronze between them.
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
I found Cup of Russia to be the best men's event so far in this season's GP. Nobody was perfect but several skaters did much better than expected and were ENTERTAINING. Wonderful! :cheer2:
I wish Brezina and Misha could have shared the bronze between them.
I am crying in the corner because there is no "the most dapper skater" prize for Brezina. :cry:
 

Interspectator

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
I am crying in the corner because there is no "the most dapper skater" prize for Brezina. :cry:

He really is. Love his coat in the LP. My mom was saying he looks like a Disney Prince. I remember last year he had that great Victorian outfit for his Sherlock routine. On the whole, Brezina has very classical and tasteful costumes.
 

silverfoxes

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 16, 2014
I found Cup of Russia to be the best men's event so far in this season's GP. Nobody was perfect but several skaters did much better than expected and were ENTERTAINING. Wonderful! :cheer2:

It really was. Only one who really disappointed me was Artur, but then again my expectations weren't that high for him after SA. I hope it isn't all downhill from here...
 

karlowens2

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 6, 2012
I started to say that in the 2002 Games, you couldn't fall on a quad and still end up on the podium, but then I remembered Plushenko. In 2002, you definitely couldn't fall five times in a free skate and walk away with a silver medal at a Grand Prix event.

They wanted to push the sport more technically after the Olympic results of 2010, and I understand that. But the rules as they are now have pushed things too far in the other direction IMO -- the splatfest at Sochi was a good example of that. Did any of the men complete two clean programs? I'm not sure what the best way to fix it would be. Increase the penalty for falls but increase the value of quads, maybe? There's got to be a happy medium somewhere.

I agree that the Hanyu scoring was crazy. I'm sure it wasn't the intent of the system to medal someone who falls five times. As a result he basically got a bye to he GPF.
 
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