2014-15 Japanese Nationals Ladies FS | Page 11 | Golden Skate

2014-15 Japanese Nationals Ladies FS

jkun

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 16, 2013
Congrats to the medalist and :party2: for Kanako being out on both Worlds and 4CC!! And I'm so happy that she decided to stay for another season....its good to take things one season at a time.

Why exactly is she being sent to worlds? Are the ladies ahead of her too young? Or was she chosen out of experience? Just seems like her finish is a little disappointing. I haven't watched any of the performances yet, I will later! Also, isn't it really disadvantageous for the nationals tech judge to give out URs like nothing? It builds a reputation for UR from certain skaters and will affect them in international competition too.
 

CoyoteChris

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 4, 2004
I have a question. I just watched the youtubes on my big screen, including the after skate slow motions of the jumps, with the printed out protocals/scores in my hand....Is a UR completely dependant on being more than 90 degrees to the direction of landing or does the takeoff boot angle have anything to do with calling compete rotations? If it is the former, then I say get the tech specialist a big screen tv with a camera angle like I had, and a seeing eye dog cause there is no way those ladies earned all those URs....
Why exactly is she being sent to worlds? Are the ladies ahead of her too young? Or was she chosen out of experience? Just seems like her finish is a little disappointing. I haven't watched any of the performances yet, I will later! Also, isn't it really disadvantageous for the nationals tech judge to give out URs like nothing? It builds a reputation for UR from certain skaters and will affect them in international competition too.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
I have a question. I just watched the youtubes on my big screen, including the after skate slow motions of the jumps, with the printed out protocals/scores in my hand....Is a UR completely dependant on being more than 90 degrees to the direction of landing or does the takeoff boot angle have anything to do with calling compete rotations? If it is the former, then I say get the tech specialist a big screen tv with a camera angle like I had, and a seeing eye dog cause there is no way those ladies earned all those URs....

Not every single time, in fact, most times, most of the Japanese ladies' jumps would not have been called underrotation in international competitions, but there have, indeed, been times when important jumps were called underrotations in international competitions for being just as (under)rotated---most notably Mao's jumps.

If all jumps are called underrotations according to the strictest criteria that Mao's jumps, in her most important competitions, have been called, then most ladies' jumps would be called underrotation, and if they are consistently called as strictly, then the caller is being fair, don't you think?
 

mikeko666

Final Flight
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
If Asada had been at the Nationals this year, all of her jumps, both triples and 2Lo would have been killed with < and <<. JSF just wants to improve the over all quality of jumps by lady skaters. They couldn't do that until Asada is gone.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
If Asada had been at the Nationals this year, all of her jumps, both triples and 2Lo would have been killed with < and <<. JSF just wants to improve the over all quality of jumps by lady skaters. They couldn't do that until Asada is gone.

Mao is, of course, no longer skating (just this season, hopefully), but this tech caller is here to stay, right? And she will be tech specialist in international competitions as well, right? How many of Elena's, Julia's or Gracie's jumps would also be called under-rotated? It'll be a galore! And since the same strict criteria would be applied, they would all be fairly and equally called under-rotated. :agree:
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
So impressed by the top two! I really like Satoko's LP, and it's so great to see it hit here. Honestly, her jumps don't look UR to me. Just very, very small. I hope she works on this--she doesn't need monster jumps, just jumps that are big enough to not detract from her performance.

I'm so impressed with Rika right now. I'm not even sure why--she has terrible posture, a terrible layback position, and not the skating skills of the other girls... but holy crap she was on fire for that LP! It always seems to take a while for her to get into it, but by the end she captured both the passion and pain of Carmen. I love how she went for both 3F-3T and the half-loop combo.

I love Wakaba's speed and big jumps. Hopefully she'll get better programs next year. Parts of her LP did look a little ragged.

Disappoint for Kanako, but she does get to go to Worlds. She did attack her program much like Rika did, even though the effort didn't create the same results.

Haruka's placement is :cry:, but she did skate both programs quite well, downgrades aside. Much better than how she was on the GP.
 

CoyoteChris

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 4, 2004
Actually, no, I don't think the tech specialist is being fair...mostly, he/she is being wrong if the jumps are indeed rotated to the definition, what ever that is. So back to my original question: Is the definition of a UR predicated purely on the angle of the blade hitting the ice in relation to the direction of travel? IF that is indeed the case, and the tech specialist does not make a good call, it doesn't mean that person is dishonest....perhaps the tech panel needs better equipment, for instance, or better training. But if Japanese TV, who I think did an excellent job with THEIR camera angles of showing the landings in slow mo, can show the jumps were landed without URs, then this sport has a serious problem with bringing technology to the tech panel and judges. Its kinda sad actually that even I can watch the jump, played in slow motion by Japanese TV, and the jump sequence named at the bottom of the screen that is so obvious that even I can read it, watch that jump with the score sheet In my hand and see that the tech panel is wrong....do what I do...hook your laptop to your big screen with an HDMI cable and watch Rika's or ? 's jumps even at 480 dpi during the afterskate replay and see what YOU think....anything near 90 degrees is pretty obvious....like my poor Mirai...but many of these downgrades were not near that....wish I spoke Japanese to hear what the announcers were saying about this....
Chris trying to get the Japanese TV folks to do the US Nats in English with all those lovely stats appearing on the screen....
Not every single time, in fact, most times, most of the Japanese ladies' jumps would not have been called underrotation in international competitions, but there have, indeed, been times when important jumps were called underrotations in international competitions for being just as (under)rotated---most notably Mao's jumps.

If all jumps are called underrotations according to the strictest criteria that Mao's jumps, in her most important competitions, have been called, then most ladies' jumps would be called underrotation, and if they are consistently called as strictly, then the caller is being fair, don't you think?
 

CoyoteChris

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 4, 2004
I am with you...when I saw Rika and Satoko live at SkateCanada, I mentioned how well I liked them. I wonder if Satoko will grow any more? She does have to get those jumps up....I love Kanako and Haruka too,....best wishes for them.....
But the thing that really impressed me with THIS competition is how well the who field is doing.....the American Ladies have their work cut out for them......
So impressed by the top two! I really like Satoko's LP, and it's so great to see it hit here. Honestly, her jumps don't look UR to me. Just very, very small. I hope she works on this--she doesn't need monster jumps, just jumps that are big enough to not detract from her performance.

I'm so impressed with Rika right now. I'm not even sure why--she has terrible posture, a terrible layback position, and not the skating skills of the other girls... but holy crap she was on fire for that LP! It always seems to take a while for her to get into it, but by the end she captured both the passion and pain of Carmen. I love how she went for both 3F-3T and the half-loop combo.

I love Wakaba's speed and big jumps. Hopefully she'll get better programs next year. Parts of her LP did look a little ragged.

Disappoint for Kanako, but she does get to go to Worlds. She did attack her program much like Rika did, even though the effort didn't create the same results.

Haruka's placement is :cry:, but she did skate both programs quite well, downgrades aside. Much better than how she was on the GP.
 

jkun

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 16, 2013
I love Wakaba's speed and big jumps. Hopefully she'll get better programs next year. Parts of her LP did look a little ragged.

She really needs better programs.. Especially with her music choice. She's gonna be compared to Yuna Kim and that program is nowhere near close....
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Actually, no, I don't think the tech specialist is being fair...mostly, he/she is being wrong if the jumps are indeed rotated to the definition, what ever that is. So back to my original question: Is the definition of a UR predicated purely on the angle of the blade hitting the ice in relation to the direction of travel? IF that is indeed the case, and the tech specialist does not make a good call, it doesn't mean that person is dishonest....perhaps the tech panel needs better equipment, for instance, or better training. But if Japanese TV, who I think did an excellent job with THEIR camera angles of showing the landings in slow mo, can show the jumps were landed without URs, then this sport has a serious problem with bringing technology to the tech panel and judges. Its kinda sad actually that even I can watch the jump, played in slow motion by Japanese TV, and the jump sequence named at the bottom of the screen that is so obvious that even I can read it, watch that jump with the score sheet In my hand and see that the tech panel is wrong....do what I do...hook your laptop to your big screen with an HDMI cable and watch Rika's or ? 's jumps even at 480 dpi during the afterskate replay and see what YOU think....anything near 90 degrees is pretty obvious....like my poor Mirai...but many of these downgrades were not near that....wish I spoke Japanese to hear what the announcers were saying about this....
Chris trying to get the Japanese TV folks to do the US Nats in English with all those lovely stats appearing on the screen....
I can understand why they would downgrade Satoko's 3-3 despite the lack of a landing cheat, on her 3T takeoff she literally rotates a 3/4 turn on the ice. Most of the others are inexplicable but as international tech panels seem to hate Kanako's guts (and again, her jumps are unjustly downgraded WAY too frequently) I guess the JSF decided to simulate the hatred for all the others in the hope that they could make coaches of future Japanese skaters rotate them... perfectly? More than perfectly? Whatever, pointless UR calls are still not the right way to go.
 

jkun

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 16, 2013
Watching the performances now.. From the scores you'd think everyone underwhelmed.. Rika's performance was very exciting. Made Carmen quite acceptable... This tech caller is ridiculous...
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Just curious... who assigns the technical callers? ISU or JSF at nationals? If it is at the instruction of the Chairman of the technical committee, then seriously lol!
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Rika Hongo was so good here! She improved the distracting hunch in her posture, performed the program more then ever, and the jumps were solid. I don't at all agree with the < calls she got on the 3Loop or the first 3Sal, and the call on the 3Toe was very nitpicky. I found her to be as good as Miyahara.
 

burntBREAD

Medalist
Joined
Mar 27, 2010
She really needs better programs.. Especially with her music choice. She's gonna be compared to Yuna Kim and that program is nowhere near close....

She is also 13, so she has a lot of time. Can't even go to Worlds for a couple of years!
 

CoyoteChris

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 4, 2004
OK, so a UR can be called because of an error on takeoff? BTW, when I hear the Japanese announcers pronounce Kanako's name, I hear "Conoco" as in the gasoline....is this the correct pronunciation?
(This is from Wiki...."A jump that is cheated is one in which the skater either begins or completes the rotation of a jump on the ice instead of in the air. While this error is often not obvious to casual observers, under the ISU Judging System, cheated jumps are heavily penalized, in many cases as much as or more than a fall on a fully rotated jump." )
Interesting article by a judge...
http://iceskatingresources.org/EvaluationOfJumps.html

Also this:
http://gofigureskating.com/skills/jumps/compete.html

Under-Rotated
Jumps and Throw Jumps may, in execution, be lacking intended rotation on the landing
and/or take-off. The elements with lacking rotation will be defined as "Under-rotated" or
"Downgraded" and treated as follows.
•A Jump/Throw with accepted rotation has "missing rotation of ¼ revolution or less".
•This element will receive full Base Value with GOE at the discretion of every Judge.
•A Jump/Throw will be considered as "Under-rotated" if it has "missing rotation of more
than ¼, but less than ½ revolutions".

An under-rotated jump/throw will be indicated by the Technical Panel to the Judges
and in the protocols with a "<" symbol after the element code.
•A jump or throw identified as under-rotated will receive a reduced base value - 70% of the base value of the intended jump/throw rounded to one decimal place. (i.e., if the base value of a jump is 6.0, then the value of the under-rotated jump is 4.2).
•The GOE values applied to the under-rotated jump or throw will be the same as for the intended jump or throw.
Downgraded
A Jump/Throw will be considered as "Downgraded" if it has "missing rotation of ½
revolutions or more". •A downgraded jump/throw will be indicated by the Technical Panel to the Judges and in the protocols with a "<<" symbol after the element code.
•A jump or throw identified as downgraded will be evaluated using the scale of values (SOV chart) for the element of one rotation less (i.e., a downgraded triple will be evaluated with the scale of values for the corresponding double).
•Both under-rotated and downgraded jumps will count as the intended jump in the application of Well Balanced Program regulations.
•Twist Lifts with lacking intended rotation on the landing can also be downgraded if they
have "missing rotation of ½ revolutions or more".





Single


Double


Triple


Quad




I can understand why they would downgrade Satoko's 3-3 despite the lack of a landing cheat, on her 3T takeoff she literally rotates a 3/4 turn on the ice. Most of the others are inexplicable but as international tech panels seem to hate Kanako's guts (and again, her jumps are unjustly downgraded WAY too frequently) I guess the JSF decided to simulate the hatred for all the others in the hope that they could make coaches of future Japanese skaters rotate them... perfectly? More than perfectly? Whatever, pointless UR calls are still not the right way to go.
 
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