US teams for 2015 Worlds and 4CCs | Page 6 | Golden Skate

US teams for 2015 Worlds and 4CCs

tulosai

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2011
Generally good selections, but if the selection were entirely up to me, I'd have this for the men:

Worlds

Jason, Adam, and Max

4CC

Jason, Joshua, and Max

I think people here underrate Max Aaron a bit. He was actually the third highest American man on the Grand Prix circuit based on the system the ISU uses. He was tied with Ricky in terms of qualification points, but Ricky barely edged him out on 1st tiebreaker. Jason was obviously highest ranked. With more backing from his fed, his PCS would improve a decent amount, too. I can understand not liking his skating, but it would be smart for USFS to treat him with more respect.

I also think the USFSA should back Max more, probably as our number 2. I'd argue that, other than Jason, he is our most consistent man (not saying much, but it is something) and his tech content is much higher than Jason's and our other top men however you slice it. That's because he is our only top man with a consistent quad (though perhaps Farris is getting one now (and I hope so)- but I think it would be wise to withhold judgment on that for the moment). Yes, his 'artistry' leaves something to be desired, but his SS and TR are actually quite good, and his PCS would go up if the USFSA would support him- i think the comparison to Kovtun, made elsewhere, is apt.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Generally good selections, but if the selection were entirely up to me, I'd have this for the men:

Worlds

Jason, Adam, and Max

4CC

Jason, Joshua, and Max

I think people here underrate Max Aaron a bit. He was actually the third highest American man on the Grand Prix circuit based on the system the ISU uses. He was tied with Ricky in terms of qualification points, but Ricky barely edged him out on 1st tiebreaker. Jason was obviously highest ranked. With more backing from his fed, his PCS would improve a decent amount, too. I can understand not liking his skating, but it would be smart for USFS to treat him with more respect.

As noted elsewhere, Adam and Josh both have low World standing due to poor GP season; this is a chance for them to get some extra points. If one wanted to send Max, I'd replace Jason, not the other two.

Last year, USFS did give Max worlds instead of giving Jason both Worlds and Olympics.

For me, I wonder if US Nationals judges are actually taking a cue from the international judges, not the other way around.

I found it odd that a complete meltdown from Joshua Farris at NHK still yielded 68.28 PCS (while only getting 42+ in TES) and that Max got barely higher PCS (68.58) for a poor, but not as bad performance (66.93 TES).

He gets OK PCS when he does well, but it really drops when he doesn't.

It's a head scratcher for sure. :think:
 

Interspectator

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
As noted elsewhere, Adam and Josh both have low World standing due to poor GP season; this is a chance for them to get some extra points. If one wanted to send Max, I'd replace Jason, not the other two.

Last year, USFS did give Max worlds instead of giving Jason both Worlds and Olympics.

For me, I wonder if US Nationals judges are actually taking a cue from the international judges, not the other way around.

I found it odd that a complete meltdown from Joshua Farris at NHK still yielded 68.28 PCS (while only getting 42+ in TES) and that Max got barely higher PCS (68.58) for a poor, but not as bad performance (66.93 TES).

He gets OK PCS when he does well, but it really drops when he doesn't.

It's a head scratcher for sure. :think:

Just a note that even with that utter meltdown at NHK, the crowd loved Joshua's choreography and gave noticeable applause for it during his performance. I think the commentators mentioned it too. It could be Josh's performance ability and skating is so strong that it can yield that kind PCS even when the jumps aren't there. -As opposed to someone like Max, Mura or Kovtun.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Just a note that even with that utter meltdown at NHK, the crowd loved Joshua's choreography and gave noticeable applause for it during his performance. I think the commentators mentioned it too. It could be Josh's performance ability and skating is so strong that it can yield that kind PCS even when the jumps aren't there. -As opposed to someone like Max, Mura or Kovtun.

That's quite true. But if I was Max's team, I'd still be scratching my head.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
.... Last year, USFS did give Max worlds instead of giving Jason both Worlds and Olympics.

For me, I wonder if US Nationals judges are actually taking a cue from the international judges, not the other way around.

I found it odd that a complete meltdown from Joshua Farris at NHK still yielded 68.28 PCS (while only getting 42+ in TES) and that Max got barely higher PCS (68.58) for a poor, but not as bad performance (66.93 TES).

He gets OK PCS when he does well, but it really drops when he doesn't.

It's a head scratcher for sure. :think:

:agree: And in his post-SP Social Scene interview in Greensboro, Max again sincerely expressed that it was an honor to be chosen for 2014 Worlds -- esp. when USFS could have stuck with Jeremy and Jason for both the Olympics and Worlds.

I am sad that Max helped earned the three spots for Worlds this year, but that he will not be going.
But am pleased that he is getting a lot of support in this thread, the Men's FS thread, and the U.S. Men thread ... along with Jason, Adam, and Josh :).

Mrs. P, do you think there's any chance that USFS would send Max to WTT? And that he would want to go?

Part of me is clinging to a tiny shred of hope for this scenario. Max often has said that he loved contributing to Team USA at WTT, which gratified him as playing hockey did.
Surely he would be thrilled to perform for the Japanese crowd again, and to have another meeting with his Japanese fan club.
As first alternate for Four Continents and Worlds, he will be continuing to practice this season's programs anyway.

I can understand why Jason, Adam, and Josh are going to both Four Continents and Worlds, and I hope that they all do really well for themselves and for Team USA.
But if two of them are not totally psyched to take on WTT as well, I think Max would be happy to step up with fresh body and mind.

Or would Max be better off concentrating on getting an early start on next season's programs? :think:

Anyway, thanks for the thoughts on Max's PCS. I too am scratching my head. :scratch:
 
Last edited:

blancanieves

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 3, 2012
Gilles/Poirier were not in peak form at 4CC's last year. They had lost several months of training because of Paul's ankle injury.

This season Gilles/Poirier beat Hubbell/Donohue at both GP events.

So perhaps now G&P have overtaken H&D.

But we'll find out at Worlds. I agree that no one should be writing off H&D yet.


I'm a stickler for details, apologies ;P H/D won Four Continents with Madison skating with a torn labrum. Her surgery took place two months later, in March.

This fall G/P "beat" H/D as Madison and Zach entered the Grand Prix series undertrained and with underdeveloped programs due to the length of her rehabilitation.

Everything has been very difficult for them this season. But they've shown tangible progress from their season debut at the Grand Prix to Nationals, and that should continue as they head into Worlds.

I'm definitely looking forward to watching them compete in another two months.
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
I wouldn't read too much into the CoR/NHK PCS for Max and Josh. Different competitions, different panels. I recall the judges at Worlds last year didn't nail Max too badly, despite him making some errors (and no, it was not a "They're trying to give USA three spots!" conspiracy. They could've easily given Jeremy 4th place if that had been the case).

Max not getting 4CC had less to do with him... and more to do with the nature of the Worlds team USA are sending. Josh is yet inexperienced on the senior stage, and severely needs to rebuild momentum after NHK. Jason's consistency has taken some hits this season, and even last season he skated worse at the Olympics than he did at Worlds. They're probably trying to give him more experience too. Adam is the "veteran," but he's also very inconsistent, needs to rebuild after a bad GP season, and probably should get more trials on that 4Lz.

I'd consider taking out Jason or Adam for Max at 4CC, but since they finished ahead of Josh (why oh why did you Zayak?), even that would be awkward.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
I wouldn't read too much into the CoR/NHK PCS for Max and Josh. Different competitions, different panels. I recall the judges at Worlds last year didn't nail Max too badly, despite him making some errors (and no, it was not a "They're trying to give USA three spots!" conspiracy. They could've easily given Jeremy 4th place if that had been the case).

Max not getting 4CC had less to do with him... and more to do with the nature of the Worlds team USA are sending. Josh is yet inexperienced on the senior stage, and severely needs to rebuild momentum after NHK. Jason's consistency has taken some hits this season, and even last season he skated worse at the Olympics than he did at Worlds. They're probably trying to give him more experience too. Adam is the "veteran," but he's also very inconsistent, needs to rebuild after a bad GP season, and probably should get more trials on that 4Lz.

I'd consider taking out Jason or Adam for Max at 4CC, but since they finished ahead of Josh (why oh why did you Zayak?), even that would be awkward.

You are right regarding not doing a direct comparison, given different panels.

I guess regarding the chicken v. egg question: http://www.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2010/64740/SEGM013.html

This is the FS protocal from 2010 Nationals (junior level) when Jason, Josh and Max finished in the top 3.

The PCS was as follows

Jason 63.14
Josh 63.00
Max 57.20

However, Max did not have a perfect program, so it's hard to say whether he would have scored higher if he did.

THe highest PCS, however, actually went to the pewter winner, Scott Dyer (64.08).


I don't know if this indicates whether USFSA had more support for Jason/Josh v. Max though. But just wanted to put it out there for the record.
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
Well, it indeed is a chicken and egg question. His international PCS might not be good... but certainly we can see why they're not, when he does essentially two quads and two axels at Nationals and finishes fourth place? (I'm not arguing his placement, but... you gotta think this makes an impression on the international judges). If USFSA are "dropping" Max because of his international PCS, they really should think more deeply about where those PCS come from.

Maybe Max should take some cues from Voronov: consistency is the key. If he'd skated two perfect programs at Cup of Russia, won a bronze medal (well within his reach), and made GPF, I'm sure judges everywhere would take another look at him.
 

flutzy13

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
It's interesting that USFSA is sending Hawayek & Baker instead of Hubbell & Donohue. Perhaps because they were so close at Nationals.

It will also be interesting to see how H&B rank in comparison to the Canadian ice dance teams at 4CC'S.

I'm really glad H/B are getting this opportunity. They outscored H/D in TES in both segments and at least IMO from watching in the arena probably should have been the bronze medalists or at the very least ahead in the FD. H/D's FD score seemed like a major gift for a sloppy, slow performance. H/B flowed beautifully and were mesmerizing. I'm so disappointed that their lovely program won't get to be showcased at Worlds but at least they'll get some additional mileage at 4CC. And I strongly suspect this will be the last year they are left home for Worlds.
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
I'm really glad H/B are getting this opportunity. They outscored H/D in TES in both segments and at least IMO from watching in the arena probably should have been the bronze medalists or at the very least ahead in the FD. H/D's FD score seemed like a major gift for a sloppy, slow performance. H/B flowed beautifully and were mesmerizing. I'm so disappointed that their lovely program won't get to be showcased at Worlds but at least they'll get some additional mileage at 4CC. And I strongly suspect this will be the last year they are left home for Worlds.
I agree. H/B are the future of US Ice Dancing.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Cesario deserved to win bronze at Skate America over the fatally flawed programs there. Competition rankings should be based on the performances, not on potential which it seems like you're doing by bringing up Cesario's other competitions in which she has done poorly (which are many).

I was there live, and there is NO WAY even with the mistakes that were made by Gracie, Liza, and Elena, that Sammi deserved Bronze. None.
 

Ryan O

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 5, 2004
Country
Canada
I'm a stickler for details, apologies ;P H/D won Four Continents with Madison skating with a torn labrum. Her surgery took place two months later, in March.

This fall G/P "beat" H/D as Madison and Zach entered the Grand Prix series undertrained and with underdeveloped programs due to the length of her rehabilitation.

Yes, Madison Hubbell has had injury issues - that's fair to point out. But don't forget that Paul Poirier was seriously injured before the 2013/2014 season and was not in top form at 2014 Four Continents. G&P lost months of training time from Paul's broken ankle surgery and he had to be in a cast for a couple months while his leg healed.

So BOTH teams have had to overcome major injury issues over the past couple seasons. :)
 

Matilda

Medalist
Joined
Dec 19, 2012
Yes, Madison Hubbell has had injury issues - that's fair to point out. But don't forget that Paul Poirier was seriously injured before the 2013/2014 season and was not in top form at 2014 Four Continents. G&P lost months of training time from Paul's broken ankle surgery and he had to be in a cast for a couple months while his leg healed.

So BOTH teams have had to overcome major injury issues over the past couple seasons. :)

Yes, but 4CCC was the end of the season after the surgery for Paul, while Madi was still injured at that point. H/D could barely practice as Madi was in so much pain. She went into surgery shortly after 4CCC. That woman is tough as nails, skating through the season with a torn labrum in the first place!

I love H/B as well, but H/D are special to me. I think they've done amazingly well last season as well as this one, despite Madi's injury, and I look forward to seeing what they can do when they are both healthy! :)
 
Top