Melissa Bulanhagui

All right. What can she accomplish for the USA? Do you feel she can accomplish more for the USA than for the Phillipines?

ImaginaryPogue said:

All right. What can she accomplish for the USA? Do you feel she can accomplish more for the USA than for the Phillipines?

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I don't take JFK literally. I interpret that quote as him asking his countrymen to stand with him even when the times are tough, asking more of them than may be comfortable for them in that point in time because he hopes what his country means to them is more than convenience.

Wait, so did Mel switch because she could do more for the Philippines? She coulda started a couple years ago.

Prettykey, is it a betrayal for an American coach to train foreign skaters who compete against the Americans, especially a bitter rival?

eta. Is it disloyal for an American to root for a foregn skater, e.g. Yuna Kim, over, say, Alissa Czisny or Mirai Nagasu?

SkateFiguring said:

Prettykey, is it a betrayal for an American coach to train foreign skaters who compete against the Americans

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In general, not necessarily

SkateFiguring said:

...especially a bitter rival?

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In the case of a "bitter rival", yes, it may be considered a betrayal of sorts.

SkateFiguring said:

eta. Is it disloyal for an American to root for a foregn skater, e.g. Yuna Kim, over, say, Alissa Czisny or Mirai Nagasu?

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Unless S. Korea and the USA become intense political enemies or rivals, then no.

These questions hinge on to what extent an individual skater represents a country by proxy, and how much the competitive arena is a place where the countries are "clashing". A Japanese coach coaching YuNa Kim while she wallops the Japanese ladies would possibly be considered a traitor. A Korean coach doing likewise with Mao Asada may likewise be considered a traitor. That is, in part, because of the intense rivalry the two nations share, such that YuNa Kim becomes representative of Korea quite strongly and Mao Asada is representative of Japan the country.

YuNa Kim and Carolina Kostner skating in the same event, is less Korea vs. Italy.

I also don't think a Russian coach coaching Evan Lysacek on his way to his OGM over Plushenko would have been too popular in Russia. I suspect this one has other complexities beyond simple country-based "Russia vs. USA"; Russian men's skating has historically favoured technicians, so 2010 Lysacek also represents an un-Russian ideal of a male skater.

These issues were already raised in your post #16 which continue to miss the point that R.D. and I raise.

SkateFiguring said:

They may be two issues that concern some people:

1) The investment by the US or USFSA in an ultimately foreign competitor.
...
2) The effect on the sport and skaters in the "foreign" countries with small federations.

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We are not talking so much about country vs. country (symbolized by a skater) on some turf called the arena. I am personally speaking more about the loyalties our minds and hearts must choose. Individual skaters cannot choose to represent more than one country at a time. This is not about country vs. country on the turf of the venue...OMG I want the USA to win! (no) OMG I want the Philippines to win! (no). This is about country vs. country in the mind and heart of a skater. Moreover, whereas a coach may choose to train skaters from several different countries, again, a skater can only skate for one country at a time.

I am not offended on behalf of the USA, nor am I offended on behalf of the Philippines. Like I said, when it comes to utilitarian measures of ends, it looks like a win-win situation. However, for me, it is about her indirectly dissing both. I do not care which she would have chosen, I only wish that she had chosen one for strong, loyal reasons and stuck to it. This is just my value system. Other posters have their own value system and...oh well.

I don't get why people are getting bent out of shape about Melissa representing the Philippines. Its not like the US hasn't benefited from being made second choice by other skaters who couldn't be as successful in their home country (Belbin, Sur, Tchernyshev, Petukhov). Besides if the USFS felt the same way some of you did, do you thunk they could have said no and made her career pretty much over?

blue dog said:

I don't get why people are getting bent out of shape about Melissa representing the Philippines.

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I don't get it either! Would there have been less butthurt if I had added 'JMO' to each of my posts?

I am personally speaking more about the loyalties our minds and hearts must choose.

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Why must our minds and hearts choose loyalties? We can love the whole world, the physical Earth, the human and other species of life we co-exist with. Only people care about and obey political boundaries. Nature and all other Earth's inhabitants don't. Nations are artifical lines on the man made map. There are no such lines in the real environment with a distinctly different colour on each side. Winds, rains, rivers, insects, vegetation and wildlife, etc. don't halt at such imaginary lines. There are many many lovely places, people, and cultures on this Earth. It is good to experience and love many of them.

Individual skaters cannot choose to represent more than one country at a time.

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That is an arbitary rule of the sport organizations, to be followed if one joins in the game ruled by said organizations. But it has nothing to do with the hearts and minds, which can definitely love more than one country, just as we can love more than one person at a time.

These questions hinge on to what extent an individual skater represents a country by proxy, and how much the competitive arena is a place where the countries are "clashing".

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Why place such importance on "clashes" between nations? Having to choose by imposed criteria is something drilled into people's mind by people with agendas, such as powerful politicians, Big Business, or idle petty individuals making up wars on Youtube. I don't see why I should be manipulated into giving up my own free choices based on my own values. Our values are of course influenced by everyone and every teaching in our lives, but we can questions them. E.g. Must we create or continue wars, with mutual villifications to justify cruel and inhuman acts on each other? Must I be obligated tobelieve in and propagate such practice? Why can't we question conflicts and get the leaders to be fair, respectful, and to work things out? Why should I believe my country is always right and saintly and the "enemies" are evil and 100% responsible for instigating the conflict? We don't believe in solving personal dispute with violence, why are we made to think violence is the way in international disputes? Why must I keep such clashes in consideration in my personal decisions in order to align with the "correct" loyalty?

In team sports, when a player changes jerseys, we may cheer against him but he doesn't become someone disgusting. It's just a game. Competing skaters are young devoted athletes and they want chances to compete. It is just a sport. When someone with dual citizenships picks a country to represent, s/he doesn't start hating or acting against the other country which s/he has always loved. A skater just wants to skate. Why is s/he supposed to understand any of the international clashes and to choose "loyalty" accordingly as if s/h has responsibilities in them? It's an all too unnecesarily complicated and irrelevent imposition.

These are my very different personal opinions and feelings on nationalism and the matter of choosing loyalties. Just expressing them in response, not claiming to be "correct".

In this case, Melissa B has loyalty to her self and her dreams to skate at an international level. Beyond that, it's not some big political drama. Things go on, Melissa B just gets the opportunity to skate at some international competitions that she wouldn't get to if she stayed in the USFS competitive stream. This happens more frequently than is posted on this board, especially in Pairs and Dance where finding the right partner can be a pain. I know American skaters who have represented Greece, Taiwan, Taipei, and the Phillipines (no, not Melissa B, a man). It's not a big deal, at least not as big as people are making it out to be. I think it's a great opportunity for them to get to be involved at a higher level than they would if they continued in the qualifying track in the US and it looks good on a college resume and later on is something to talk about in a job interview.

I don't understand why this is an issue. It's not as if Melissa were competing for the US internationally. Why not let her get her shot to compete internationally for another country. If it were a lady who had gained international success for the US (i.e. Nagasu, Gao, etc) then this would be an issue, but its not as if we are losing a skater who could have potentially won a World medal for the US.

I also don't get the hoopla over this. I've never even heard of this Melissa. She finished in the middle of the pack at the last national championship, and from what I can tell, is a second tier skater. What good is she going to do anyone, skating for the United States, forever being an also ran? Let her represent the Philippines, or Azerbajakistan as some skaters have decided to do.

So skaters, even those with legally binding ties to another country, cannot compete for any other country internationally because it's disloyal? Some dual citizens can vote in either country they hold citizenship in, does this mean they are disloyal to either country during elections? Voting for your representative in government is essentially showing your loyalty and fidelity to a country. I guess my point is, if someone like Melissa can vote in the US and in the Philippines and basically show her loyalty to both countries, why are we saying then that it's disloyal if she represents the other in the Olympics?

BackStage Barbie said:

I don't understand why this is an issue. It's not as if Melissa were competing for the US internationally. Why not let her get her shot to compete internationally for another country. If it were a lady who had gained international success for the US (i.e. Nagasu, Gao, etc) then this would be an issue, but its not as if we are losing a skater who could have potentially won a World medal for the US.

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That's one excellent point, Barbie.

Another larger issue, is pretty much everything SkateFiguring said so well. After all, it's not as though there's too much international cooperation, on this planet, folks. There's too little. Anything that relaxes the borders is helpful, and sports is a huge aid in this effort, as are the creative and performing arts and also the sciences. To that end, why not root for skaters from countries that are political rivals? Should Americans not love Shen/Zhao? Should an American choreographer, Lea Ann Miller, not turn them into superb artists? Or, in the days of the Cold War, should we have booed Katia and Sergei? Admiring athletes from other countries is one way that we begin to humanize rivals and even enemies.

Look...what exactly are the stakes when someone wins an international medal for skating? Does the gross national product rise? Do we move closer to a cure for cancer? So if a kid from the U.S. decides to skate for the Philippines, how exactly is that disloyal to her country? She just wants to skate more than she's had the opportunity to do in this country. If she decided to stay and take her chances as a U.S. contender, that would be fine, too. I wish her the best and hope to see her on the international stage someday!

Whether it's "disloyal" or not is up for debate...I don't think there is a right or wrong answer.

Still, one thing it's hard to blame her for is wanting that success. While switching countries is quite controversial as we see in this thread, at the same time it's not illegal to do so...we'll see what becomes of her as an Asian skater.

FTR, her 2010 Nebelhorn score would have placed her 21st at Worlds this year and 20th at last year's Worlds.

R.D. said:

FTR, her 2010 Nebelhorn score would have placed her 21st at Worlds this year and 20th at last year's Worlds.

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That's a step in the right direction for PSU. She would be the first Filipina skater to qualify for the long program at Worlds.

SkateFiguring said:

Why must our minds and hearts choose loyalties?

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Because like I said, you can only rep one country at sporting events at a time. It doesn't matter that it's "arbitrary", as you say - we are able to make the choice and the choices aren't made arbitrarily.

SkateFiguring said:

We can love the whole world, the physical Earth, the human and other species of life we co-exist with. Only people care about and obey political boundaries. Nature and all other Earth's inhabitants don't. Nations are artifical lines on the man made map. There are no such lines in the real environment with a distinctly different colour on each side. Winds, rains, rivers, insects, vegetation and wildlife, etc. don't halt at such imaginary lines. There are many many lovely places, people, and cultures on this Earth. It is good to experience and love many of them.

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Nice speech, but neither R.D. nor I were making arguments against it. Also, you are speaking about countries having "artificial lines" aka borders and rocks and trees. Nations are different from countries.

SkateFiguring said:

That is an arbitary rule of the sport organizations, to be followed if one joins in the game ruled by said organizations. But it has nothing to do with the hearts and minds, which can definitely love more than one country, just as we can love more than one person at a time.

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Again, that's not my point.

BackStage Barbie said:

I don't understand why this is an issue. It's not as if Melissa were competing for the US internationally. Why not let her get her shot to compete internationally for another country. If it were a lady who had gained international success for the US (i.e. Nagasu, Gao, etc) then this would be an issue, but its not as if we are losing a skater who could have potentially won a World medal for the US.

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Mmm, in my value system, the issue doesn't change when a country-hopping skater is able to medal.

Olympia said:

Another larger issue, is pretty much everything SkateFiguring said so well. After all, it's not as though there's too much international cooperation, on this planet, folks. There's too little. Anything that relaxes the borders is helpful, and sports is a huge aid in this effort, as are the creative and performing arts and also the sciences. To that end, why not root for skaters from countries that are political rivals? Should Americans not love Shen/Zhao? Should an American choreographer, Lea Ann Miller, not turn them into superb artists? Or, in the days of the Cold War, should we have booed Katia and Sergei? Admiring athletes from other countries is one way that we begin to humanize rivals and even enemies.

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Um, again, who is saying otherwise? That's just preaching to the choir, about a separate issue to boot.

prettykeys said:

Also, you are speaking about countries having "artificial lines" aka borders and rocks and trees. Nations are different from countries.

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The concept of a nation is indeed different from a country, but the idea of a 'nation' is equally artificial as the territorial borders of a country. Nations are imagined communities socially constructed as a means to serve socio-political and/or economic ends. As the historical record consistently demonstrates, the boundaries of what constitutes the national community are fluid and subject to fundamental changes as specific circumstances see fit.

On a completely tangential note, as for country/nation loyalties--yes, sometimes we do get to make a choice (e.g. immigration), but I find this whole concept of loyalty for the most part completely arbitrary. You don't get to choose where you're born (or even raised, for that matter), but the idea of where you're born/raised is expected to play an important role regarding your loyalties. So why can't the choices regarding loyalty be made in an equally arbitrary manner?

R.D. said:

FTR, her 2010 Nebelhorn score would have placed her 21st at Worlds this year and 20th at last year's Worlds.

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Also to offer some additional perspective. The skater that represented the Philippines in 2009, Mericien Venzon finished 27th at the Nebelhorn Trophy in 2009 (there were more entries due to it being an Olympic qualifier) with a total score (88.78) that was just a few points above what Melissa scored for her free state alone in 2010. (82.52)

Also here was Melissa's skate layout for her SP: 3Z-2L; 3S; 2A
compared with Mericien's in NT in 2009: 3S-2T; 2F; 2A

So let me offer this perspective -- Melissa's presence as a representative for the Philippines would actually up the level of competition a bit. While Melissa is a second-tier skater in the U.S., she's still better than half of the field at the World Championships.

Just to note, the second tier comment wasn't an insult to Melissa. Her scores are what they are, and they're just not good enough to rank highly in the United States. Internationally, she could do reasonably well. No, she isn't talented like Yukari Nakano, but the situation is analogous.

It's not fair for Melissa to languish in the also-ran category at Nationals and never participate in international competition, just so people can say, look how loyal and patriotic and other similar adjectives our skaters are! It's inconsiderate and selfish on their part.

prettykeys said:

Um, again, who is saying otherwise? That's just preaching to the choir, about a separate issue to boot.

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To clarify, Prettykeys--I was just responding to some of the lovely things SF said and wasn't arguing against you or implying that you felt the opposite. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I just got interested in SF's ideas and enjoyed thinking aloud about them. Easy (and fun) to drift off topic.