World Team Trophy: Predictions Game Round 5

is it possible to have the final standings (short and free combined)? I looked at the ISU page and they only give the segment standings

alebi said:

is it possible to have the final standings (short and free combined)? I looked at the ISU page and they only give the segment standings

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page 4, CaroLiza_fan was super-fast

text_skate said:

page 4, CaroLiza_fan was super-fast

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sorry sorry sorry
I can't believe I haven't noticed such a big post! I need to change my glasses :hopelessness:

text_skate said:

Wow-wow-wow!

CaroLiza_fan!

Are we going to use this (last year's) scoring system for the teams, too. If so, Russia would be in 1st place:

56 Russia
54 USA
50 Japon
41 Canada
39 China
30 France

if I calculated right.

Just curiosity, and some self-interest (I have Russia as a team in 1st )

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I put Russia top as well, so I would love to do it like this. :agree:

However, since the ISU are doing it a different way this year, I suppose we should do it their way as well. :disapp:

But, thank you so much for showing us the difference changing the scoring system has made to the results!

*cough* FIX *cough*

CaroLiza_fan

CaroLiza_fan said:

I put Russia top as well, so I would love to do it like this. :agree:

However, since the ISU are doing it a different way this year, I suppose we should do it their way as well. :disapp:

But, thank you so much for showing us the difference changing the scoring system has made to the results!

*cough* FIX *cough*

CaroLiza_fan

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can we use both method then? so we can all be winners cause i did my predictions according to the old system as well

CaroLiza_fan said:

I put Russia top as well, so I would love to do it like this. :agree:

However, since the ISU are doing it a different way this year, I suppose we should do it their way as well. :disapp:

But, thank you so much for showing us the difference changing the scoring system has made to the results!

*cough* FIX *cough*

CaroLiza_fan

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How was the fix in? This event has been around way longer then the team competition at the Olympics and the rules are the same as they were back in 2009 at the 1st WTT.

Jammers said:

How was the fix in? This event has been around way longer then the team competition at the Olympics and the rules are the same as they were back in 2009 at the 1st WTT.

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I do not think that the fix was in.

But you have missed that the rules DID change this year for determining the team results.

New this year is that the separate placements for each segment -- both SD and FD separately, for example -- are what count.

The official ISU results do not even show the combined scores for the SD and FD, for example -- b/c the combined scores do not determine any placement points.

Jammers said:

How was the fix in? This event has been around way longer then the team competition at the Olympics and the rules are the same as they were back in 2009 at the 1st WTT.

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Sorry, I couldn't resist playing devil's advocate.

I was just implying that they changed the rules to try and get a different result this year, as the results are so similar every time it is run.

Until this year, it has been the same 3 teams on the podium every WTT. And, apart from 2012 (when it was Japan from America from Canada), every year America wins, and Japan comes 3rd.

So, I reckon the ISU changed the scoring system slightly just to try to mix things up a bit. And, to a certain extent, it did, because Russia got on the podium instead of Canada.

But, they could have gone further.

A few months ago, I did a investigation to see what past WTT results would have been like if it was done by adding up the scores. And, the resultant standings for each running were very interesting...

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...turn-in-2018&p=1023335&viewfull=1#post1023335

I'll probably do the same for this year's WTT results at some stage. But, I don't have the time to do it just at the moment.

CaroLiza_fan

CaroLiza_fan said:

Sorry, I couldn't resist playing devil's advocate.

I was just implying that they changed the rules to try and get a different result this year, as the results are so similar every time it is run.

Until this year, it has been the same 3 teams on the podium every WTT. And, apart from 2012 (when it was Japan from America from Canada), every year America wins, and Japan comes 3rd.

So, I reckon the ISU changed the scoring system slightly just to try to mix things up a bit. And, to a certain extent, it did, because Russia got on the podium instead of Canada.

But, they could have gone further.

A few months ago, I did a investigation to see what past WTT results would have been like if it was done by adding up the scores. And, the resultant standings for each running were very interesting...

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...turn-in-2018&p=1023335&viewfull=1#post1023335

I'll probably do the same for this year's WTT results at some stage. But, I don't have the time to do it just at the moment.

CaroLiza_fan

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very interesting to add up ALL scores… and also I liked the formula one ideas

I'd have a lot to say but I will try to be concise. The ISU is making a big mistake with the current format. It's sending a message opposing its mandate… everyone knows that ice dance and especially pairs are underdeveloped in many countries, including Japan…. by having a format that caters towards single skaters, it's not making it clear to these countries that there is an urgency in developing all areas of figure skating.

long term results possible in the current format
1) national federations no longer consider WTT an important event: rules are modified and not all best skaters are sent… why risk sending a top pairs team when you could send pair #2 or even #3 and get a similar result?
1)b without the best skaters in all categories WTT becomes a second level competition.

2)fans disconnect from the competition… for instance, when I first looked at WTT this year, I was pretty excited… as a Canadian, with strong pairs and dance teams, and Nam who is on the rise, there was hope that one the girls did well enough to aim for bronze… but when I saw the format that privileged single skating, I disconnected… I barely watched the event… just a few videos of some specific performances etc… as the Canadian single skaters didn't do so well, it made it less and less interesting… and from there, without a format change, I am not sure I would even consider staying up to watch the streams, etc….
2b) one may say that for countries like USA or Japan with great results this year, fans will still be cheering… but it may seen less and less interesting if history repeats over and over… what makes a competition in figure skating interesting is the possibility for suspense… anything can happen!!!! in WTT, anything can happen NOT!

I hope the organizers will sit down and look closely at how each discipline should be equally factored or else they can just rename the competition… it's not a world team trophy… if all members of the team cannot contribute equally….

There are SO many ways to adjust the format…. like scoring only one entry per discipline, or adding final scores across the board… etc… I would even propose that countries may opt to send 6 skaters/teams… for instance: Canada could have sent only one male and one lady, and two pairs and two dance teams… That would cater to the strength of Canada, in this case without preventing Japan to send two males and two ladies…. In this format, what would be cool is that the fans would indeed get the best skating in all disciplines…. I am sure that everyone would agree that we would have preferred to see 2 chinese Pairs, rather than the second single skaters in both males and females….

Anyways… I ask the ISU to hire me so we can keep the conversation going and reform what is soon to become a really boring event if things aren't tweaked…

CaroLiza_fan said:

I put Russia top as well, so I would love to do it like this. :agree:

However, since the ISU are doing it a different way this year, I suppose we should do it their way as well. :disapp:

But, thank you so much for showing us the difference changing the scoring system has made to the results!

*cough* FIX *cough*

CaroLiza_fan

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I have no skin in the game, but I don't see a fix at all. The results were still quite close the other way. Basically USA men and dance and Russia ladies and pairs did better the other way. Under the new system the only difference was that Pairs were tied.

I agree the bigger loser in the format was Canada. Basically they won pairs, was second in ice dance while Japan was last in both and basically won cause of men and ladies.

Consider that Nam, who placed 6th and 7th and Gabrielle who placed 8th got fewer points than Japan finishing last.

Mrs. P said:

I have no skin in the game, but I don't see a fix at all. The results were still quite close the other way. Basically USA men and dance and Russia ladies and pairs did better the other way. Under the new system the only difference was that Pairs were tied.

I agree the bigger loser in the format was Canada. Basically they won pairs, was second in ice dance while Japan was last in both and basically won cause of men and ladies.

Consider that Nam, who placed 6th and 7th and Gabrielle who placed 8th got fewer points than Japan finishing last.

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totally… and if canada makes a few points on pairs and dance, over teams like japan, the japanese double their edge as both their skaters are ahead of both canadian skaters… so it's almost ridiculous potential points won by one country in singles events 23 points (1st, 2nd) for SP and FS gives 46… winning both segments of pairs or dance can only give 24 points…. then… lowest points for a country in singles: 6 points for last and second last for two skaters in both sp and fs…. in pairs or dance, the lowest ranked team still get 14 points…. so let's say… 46 + 46 + 14 +14 which shows maximum in singles and minimum in pairs/dance and we get 120 points… while the reverse would be 24+24 + 6+6 = 60… So we can see easily the effects of the format …there is a complete double advantage for countries with strong single skaters… while pairs and dance teams are just there so they can call it "team" event…. it's not really a team event i hope it changes as I love the idea of the format… but not like the way it is.

I don't know the history of WTT, but why only Japan footing up the price money of $1million?

Mrs. P said:

I have no skin in the game, but I don't see a fix at all. The results were still quite close the other way. Basically USA men and dance and Russia ladies and pairs did better the other way. Under the new system the only difference was that Pairs were tied.

I agree the bigger loser in the format was Canada. Basically they won pairs, was second in ice dance while Japan was last in both and basically won cause of men and ladies.

Consider that Nam, who placed 6th and 7th and Gabrielle who placed 8th got fewer points than Japan finishing last.

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Maybe if they changed how the points are awarded in pairs and ice dance? Since it's a smaller field, the first place could get 12 points, 2nd 10, 3rd 8 and so on. Of course, that could still play against the countries that are strong in those areas (like Canada), since they would get less points unless they're in first. But it could even out with how little points the countries that are much stronger in singles (like Japan) would get from those segments.
The best thing would be, IMO, to also send two teams in pairs and ice dance, but again, some countries don't have it (still looking at you, Japan). It was said the purpose of WTT was to encourage countries to develop skaters in all areas, but unless the way the points are awarded in the team segments change, it doesn't encourage anything other than having singles. Maybe if they used the 2 point intervals it would make these countries push their teams and not just singles. And once they have more skaters in those areas, the event could consist on sending two skaters/teams on all four disciplines.

alia jackson said:

I don't know the history of WTT, but why only Japan footing up the price money of $1million?

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I was always under the impression that the Japanese Federation and/or the host broadcaster were actually promoting the competition in conjunction with the ISU. But, I could be wrong.

Mrs. P said:

I have no skin in the game, but I don't see a fix at all. The results were still quite close the other way. Basically USA men and dance and Russia ladies and pairs did better the other way. Under the new system the only difference was that Pairs were tied.

I agree the bigger loser in the format was Canada. Basically they won pairs, was second in ice dance while Japan was last in both and basically won cause of men and ladies.

Consider that Nam, who placed 6th and 7th and Gabrielle who placed 8th got fewer points than Japan finishing last.

Click to expand...

I concede, it wasn't a fix. As a fan of Team Russia, I was just venting my frustrations that they didn't win.

But, I did want it to start people thinking about the implications of this change of scoring format. Which it has.

Mrs. P and 4everchan have both made some very good points (EDIT: as has xibsuarz, whose comment was posted while I was writing this). With their results in each category, Canada should have done better overall Team Scoring. But the Scoring system did not allow them. And the fact that the scoring system did not reflect how well Canada did is a sign that it is not serving its purpose.

Although, I have to admit, I am not too sure about 4everchan's idea for each country to have 6 entries altogether, and be able to vary how they are allocated amongst the 4 categories. I do understand the reasoning, but to me, this would be unfair as well.

It is tricky to work out the best format for a competition like this. But, I do think this year's results show that this year's format is not the answer.

But, let's get back to the topic of this thread (the Predcitions Game).

Perhaps this discussion about the format of the WTT could be moved to a more appropriate thread (the General Info thread might be a good option).

CaroLiza_fan

CaroLiza_fan said:

I was always under the impression that the Japanese Federation and/or the host broadcaster were actually promoting the competition in conjunction with the ISU. But, I could be wrong.



I concede, it wasn't a fix. As a fan of Team Russia, I was just venting my frustrations that they didn't win.

But, I did want it to start people thinking about the implications of this change of scoring format. Which it has.

Mrs. P and 4everchan have both made some very good points (EDIT: as has xibsuarz, whose comment was posted while I was writing this). With their results in each category, Canada should have done better overall Team Scoring. But the Scoring system did not allow them. And the fact that the scoring system did not reflect how well Canada did is a sign that it is not serving its purpose.

Although, I have to admit, I am not too sure about 4everchan's idea for each country to have 6 entries altogether, and be able to vary how they are allocated amongst the 4 categories. I do understand the reasoning, but to me, this would be unfair as well.

It is tricky to work out the best format for a competition like this. But, I do think this year's results show that this year's format is not the answer.

But, let's get back to the topic of this thread (the Predcitions Game).

Perhaps this discussion about the format of the WTT could be moved to a more appropriate thread (the General Info thread might be a good option).

CaroLiza_fan

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well, at least, each country would have a say on showing their pride and strength…. but there are many options.. that's just one of them… agree to let the topic go

if another country wants to foot the bill, other than Japan, they can set the format and hold the event in their country, and put up the prize money. Canada could do two pairs and two dance. Russia could do two ladies and two pairs. In fact that would be a fun change.

While olympic team event is serious, WTT is a high quality cheesefest, about prizes, fun and silliness, with some great skating thrown in.

Canada will add synchro… and each of the 16 skaters will earn 12 points. it should take care of getting the gold

dorispulaski said:

if another country wants to foot the bill, other than Japan, they can set the format and hold the event in their country, and put up the prize money. Canada could do two pairs and two dance. Russia could do two ladies and two pairs. In fact that would be a fun change.

While olympic team event is serious, WTT is a high quality cheesefest, about prizes, fun and silliness, with some great skating thrown in.

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4everchan said:

Canada will add synchro… and each of the 16 skaters will earn 12 points. it should take care of getting the gold

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don't forget Russia's Team Paradise they had a good season

they sure did but I think that 16 times 12 trumps 16 times 10

sunny_stars said:

don't forget Russia's Team Paradise they had a good season

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Men Results

For the last time this season, here we go...

1st Place: invisiblespiral and KIG (65 points)
2nd Place: randomfan and satine94 (60 points)
3rd Place: Gia_Sesshowmaru, Handomi, Kresslia, lighthouse, sunny_stars, surimi, text_skate, and YesWay (55 points)

Congrats to all the winners!

Please let me know of any mistakes.