Russian National Team for 2015-16 | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Russian National Team for 2015-16

Pippuripihvi

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 18, 2014
S/k failed twice at gp events and russian nationals which doesn't cout but they didn't get minimum from the international technical panel there either but z/g did the first time. Z/g have much more potential for success than s/k could ever dream even if s/k even get the sd minimum and zahorski is released.


Z/G can have all the potential in the world but until she's released or gets the Russian citizenship there's no point in speculating about who could dream of what. I am pretty much sure once she gets her release, the financial question will be settled.

I really hope you can overcome your hatred towards S/K existence. It' getting tiresome.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
S/k only have one job and that's to be able to compete and they couldn't get worlds sd tech minimum and seemed to barely even try.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
I think we have to give S/K another season though I still think I / K was The Russian great hope. I think it is a darn shame what happened. I am not sure what happened but the world is a little sadder and a little poorer in respect to skating talent.
 

bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Z/G can have all the potential in the world but until she's released or gets the Russian citizenship there's no point in speculating about who could dream of what. I am pretty much sure once she gets her release, the financial question will be settled.

I really hope you can overcome your hatred towards S/K existence. It' getting tiresome.

gmyers has stamina, best to ignore when it gets too much. Nothing can match however the disdain expressed for I/K.
 

bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
I think we have to give S/K another season though I still think I / K was The Russian great hope. I think it is a darn shame what happened. I am not sure what happened but the world is a little sadder and a little poorer in respect to skating talent.

That situation with I/K was fraught with just too much personal and professional tensions. Though it was sad to see them part everything will turn out for the better, they all just need more time; S/K need to work on their technique while I/Z need to bring more sophistication and polish.
 

Abraxis12345

Final Flight
Joined
Apr 18, 2014
Karponosov is not happy at all with how things are going. He says the bad results are due to bad basics, a weak second group of coaches, boring programs, poor discipline among the athletes in regards to adhering to their training regimen, and a reluctance to have any sort of competition within the groups.

http://ffkm.ru/index.php/bulletin/582-01-06-15
 

bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Karponosov is not happy at all with how things are going. He says the bad results are due to bad basics, a weak second group of coaches, boring programs, poor discipline among the athletes in regards to adhering to their training regimen, and a reluctance to have any sort of competition within the groups.

http://ffkm.ru/index.php/bulletin/582-01-06-15

Interesting. What Russian ice dance needs is cohesiveness and character, God help them. They need to stop pitting pairs against each other in the press and learn how to show off each pair at its best. But do they have the technical, artistic and professional integrity to do this?

Why is it that Stepanova skates with her bum in the air, my goodness especially during the CD portion of the SD? Why wasn't her technique addressed years ago? S/B literally grind to a halt when Stepanova tries to skate correctly. Why is Stepanova so quick to claim that her team is the No. 1 team in Russia, with Bestianova (sp?) concurring in the press from time to time.

Why was S/K literally shell shocked when they saw their scores for the SD at Russian Nationals? That was a very weak performance especially technically yet Katsalapov claims that the Russian Federation is waiting for them to rescue ice dance from the doldrums. Or even richer yet, Katsalapov claims their low placement at nationals was punishment for breaking up the pair I/K. Even to the natural eye their poor control especially on turns was visible; Sinitsina especially struggles here.

TAT and Besti proclaim in the press that Russia is not competitive on the world of ice dance because I/Z were incorrectly judged champions. Seriously, you are publicly calling into question the integrity of your own system, that you are IN CHARGE OF!! They profess the I/Z experiment does not work; although to some, rough edges aside, they had the most compelling SD of the season. When will they allow professionalism to trump personal scores? ( Can you really be put off by Katsalapov, his behaviour is just a reflection of what he sees around him. He is not mature enough yet to judge for himself what is kosher to discuss or not.) I/Z's team feverishly work at trying to renovate the much maligned FD. This invariably leads to costly errors. They should have just been allowed to focus on their technique and pass through a very difficult season. Wow something as simple as that was too much to ask?

It seems to me their ice-dancers are simply displaying the poor professionalism shown by their elders. I hope this is not all posturing because they seem to be telling their athletes something else in private. They need to go back to the basics and teach their dancers how to stroke and control their edges, this is no longer the 6.0 system!!! Their leaders need to take Russian ice dance in hand and whip all their dancers into shape, this is the era of COP!!! Finally they need to train their choreographers to adapt to the new COP system, they are woefully behind.
 
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madison

Record Breaker
Joined
May 2, 2015
Karponosov is not happy at all with how things are going. He says the bad results are due to bad basics, a weak second group of coaches, boring programs, poor discipline among the athletes in regards to adhering to their training regimen, and a reluctance to have any sort of competition within the groups.

http://ffkm.ru/index.php/bulletin/582-01-06-15

But still in the last 6 years Russia won 5 World Junior titles. It means that the Russian dancers have good basics, but lack good programs and simply they don't progress enough.
 

bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
But still in the last 6 years Russia won 5 World Junior titles. It means that the Russian dancers have good basics, but lack good programs and simply they don't progress enough.

If you take a look at the work of Hawayek/Baker for their Junior worlds campaign and compare them to Y/M you'll see where Karponosov is coming from. But the problem could also be a lack of natural talent in that regard. Are their some skills no matter how physically strong a pair that cannot be taught?
 

Abraxis12345

Final Flight
Joined
Apr 18, 2014
I think Karponosov really does have a point. The choreography is all old fashioned, like they all think they are competing against Anissina and Peizerat. With the exception of Yanovskaya and Mozgov, all the Russian teams have problem with lifts. The posture on almost everyone, Stepanova and Egor Bazin especially, is terrible. The coaches don't seem to understand where they are losing levels. And there is no excuse since almost every group, especially Zhulin's, has at least one tech specialist working with them.
 

bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
I think Karponosov really does have a point. The choreography is all old fashioned, like they all think they are competing against Anissina and Peizerat. With the exception of Yanovskaya and Mozgov, all the Russian teams have problem with lifts. The posture on almost everyone, Stepanova and Egor Bazin especially, is terrible. The coaches don't seem to understand where they are losing levels. And there is no excuse since almost every group, especially Zhulin's, has at least one tech specialist working with them.

This man has more than a point but, the fed needs to take a look in the mirror at its own actions. How was Averbuch allowed to compose so simplistic a program for I/Z when you consider what Najarro did for the same couple with only three days. Further consider the beautiful Sweet Dreams FD created for Piper Gilles and Paul Poirier for their own debut a few years ago. If the Russian Fed were invested in this couple or russian ice dance for that matter, they would have given them something better. I am not wanting for any special treatment for I/Z, but rather the FED to use simple common sense. For shame on their own fed! The federation is complicit in the quota for ice dance dropping from 3 to 2. All of this chatter is almost laughable.

Russian ice dance seems to be bereft of good choreographers or their choreographers don't feel compelled to work with their own skaters. Look on the beautiful EX given to the Shibs by Peter T. last season. I can only imagine how beautiful their Coldplay FD will be this year. Their dancers may also be discouraged by the lack of good choreography coming their way. While I am sure their dancers are partly to blame for the current state of ice dance the Federation needs to change something, for the status quo is not yielding the desired results. Russian ice dance is too shrouded in politics and personal agendas, it needs more objectivity and transparency.
 
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uhh

Medalist
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
I think Karponosov really does have a point. The choreography is all old fashioned, like they all think they are competing against Anissina and Peizerat. With the exception of Yanovskaya and Mozgov, all the Russian teams have problem with lifts. The posture on almost everyone, Stepanova and Egor Bazin especially, is terrible. The coaches don't seem to understand where they are losing levels. And there is no excuse since almost every group, especially Zhulin's, has at least one tech specialist working with them.

The only coach of a Russian team that I think really doesn't understand levels is Marina - the others are doing fine and responding to what feedback they get from the judges. M/K got great tech scores on the GP, but are let down by bad programs, her poor skating and their lack of expression. S/B should have fixed their twizzle issue straight after Finlandia, when even a fan with an ISU tech handbook could have told you about the different edge issue, but at least it was done for the 2nd half of the season. I/Z had issues on lifts and the spin on the GP, but once they had time after CoR to make adjustments, they did it, and when they missed the level of the curve lift in the FD it was due to a timing problem, not the element not being set up for a level 4. They were also one of only a handful of teams to get level 4 on both paso sequences at any point in the season.

The only ones who didn't make changes and consistently had the same problems were S/K - Victoria never getting into position fast enough for the variation to count for a feature on their twizzles, Nikita always checking the rotation on the lift which unfortunately for them was in both the SD & the FD, the problem of their curve lift barely curving and so potentially invalidating the straight line lift which followed it, etc etc. And all you got from Marina was "they look great in practice!!" and Nikita saying the judges were just punishing them for the partner splits.

The technical issues were not limited to the Russians either - W/P having twizzle and pattern issues at 4CC & Worlds especially come to mind. So the Russian situation is not great, but they aren't miles behind everyone else. All their teams are also at the point (apart from maybe M/K & B/S, but B/S should be competitive anyway) where they are likely to be making big improvements from season to season, either because they are still very young, like S/B, or because they are in a new team that's still adjusting to each other. On the other hand, C/L peaked in the Olympic season, W/P probably have too, who knows about C/B but I don't see much more untapped potential there. I could see 2 European medals for Russia next season quite easily, and possibly also a world bronze, plus getting the three spots back, so nothing to panic about. They just need to be realistic about what could be expected after all the splits & injuries of last year and focus on where these teams could go with the right support from the fed over the next 3 years.

ETA: I don't think the solution of getting Tchaikovskaia and Tarasova to advise the coaches will help either - TAT's last adventures in dance resulted in the buchering of B/S's birds and Tchaikovskaia hasn't been relevant in dance since the 1980s. At least Alla is a current member of the ISU technical committee so knows what she's talking about. If I was involved I'd be trying to get Igor or Platov involved on the technical side, Klimova who's done great work with the US kids like Edmunds that she's worked with, and Peter Tchernyshev who's shown himself to be able to do really good things within the confines of IJS with K/S. They lost so much talent to North America in the 90s/2000s and they should be trying to get that back.
 
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Abraxis12345

Final Flight
Joined
Apr 18, 2014
I don't think it's the posturing of Tarasova, Bestemianova etc. that is the problem. This type of posturing has existed forever. Karponosov has ignored them, which is why he imported Chait and Elek to judge the free dance at nationals. The coaches and the skaters are the problems. I don't think it's Tarasova's fault that Elena botched the twizzles at worlds and I don't think it's Kustarova's fault that Stepanova fell on the step sequence. However, it is Kustarova's fault that I&Z have that entry into the second set of twizzles and it is Svinin's fault that in 10 years, he still hasn't taught Stepanova to properly stroke.

And for the millionth time, what proof do you have that it was some vast conspiracy by Averbukh that Appasionata sucked? It was Elena who chose the music, which was the biggest problem. Watch their exhibition, which is their FD to some other type of music. It looks so much better.
 

bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
I don't think it's the posturing of Tarasova, Bestemianova etc. that is the problem. This type of posturing has existed forever. Karponosov has ignored them, which is why he imported Chait and Elek to judge the free dance at nationals. The coaches and the skaters are the problems. I don't think it's Tarasova's fault that Elena botched the twizzles at worlds and I don't think it's Kustarova's fault that Stepanova fell on the step sequence. However, it is Kustarova's fault that I&Z have that entry into the second set of twizzles and it is Svinin's fault that in 10 years, he still hasn't taught Stepanova to properly stroke.

And for the millionth time, what proof do you have that it was some vast conspiracy by Averbukh that Appasionata sucked? It was Elena who chose the music, which was the biggest problem. Watch their exhibition, which is their FD to some other type of music. It looks so much better.


For the millionth time what I'm alluding to here isn't a conspiracy but simply incompetence. How can a competitive free dance have two passages where the skaters do practically nothing but skate up and down a rink in a simple hand to hand hold with very little attention paid to any degree of complexity or interesting choreography? With other music and another mood of course its going to look better as an EX, but this is not an EX it is a competitive program. That's my point. Considering that four years ago Piper Giles and Poirier were not the skaters they are today and that Sweet Dreams program is still more interesting than what I/Z had this year why was this given the go ahead? If Najarro could have challenged them why not Averbuch? Simple answer, he was not a great ice dance choreographer for this pair. As this was seen from the beginning why weren't they given better material from the get go? They knew from the beginning that The FD was not comparable to the SD and the FED did nothing about it, but continually bemoan the loss of I/K. That was nuts, I/K are no more. So if there is any conspiracy theorizing on my part, this would be it. That's all.
 
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WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
This man has more than a point but, the fed needs to take a look in the mirror at its own actions. How was Averbuch allowed to compose so simplistic a program for I/Z when you consider what Najarro did for the same couple with only three days. Further consider the beautiful Sweet Dreams FD created for Piper Gilles and Paul Poirier for their own debut a few years ago. If the Russian Fed were invested in this couple or russian ice dance for that matter, they would have given them something better. I am not wanting for any special treatment for I/Z, but rather the FED to use simple common sense. For shame on their own fed! The federation is complicit in the quota for ice dance dropping from 3 to 2. All of this chatter is almost laughable.

Russian ice dance seems to be bereft of good choreographers or their choreographers don't feel compelled to work with their own skaters. Look on the beautiful EX given to the Shibs by Peter T. last season. I can only imagine how beautiful their Coldplay FD will be this year. Their dancers may also be discouraged by the lack of good choreography coming their way. While I am sure their dancers are partly to blame for the current state of ice dance the Federation needs to change something, for the status quo is not yielding the desired results. Russian ice dance is too shrouded in politics and personal agendas, it needs more objectivity and transparency.

:thumbsup:

and another :thumbsup: for your previous post but I have never figured out how to mutliquote.
 

uhh

Medalist
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
And for the millionth time, what proof do you have that it was some vast conspiracy by Averbukh that Appasionata sucked? It was Elena who chose the music, which was the biggest problem. Watch their exhibition, which is their FD to some other type of music. It looks so much better.

Who's saying it's a conspiracy? I don't think the problem was Averbukh's work either, or the music - I've seen clips from training before test skates & the program was much much better, more intricate with all the elements linked. Then they go to test skates, and what comes out after was watered down and dull. Maybe it was to make it easier to get the tech side nailed, but we've seen before skaters perform something at the test skates that looks completely different by competition 2 months later, and I can only assume they change it because of feedback from the "experts" who, it seems, are mostly wildly out of touch.
 

bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Who's saying it's a conspiracy? I don't think the problem was Averbukh's work either, or the music - I've seen clips from training before test skates & the program was much much better, more intricate with all the elements linked. Then they go to test skates, and what comes out after was watered down and dull. Maybe it was to make it easier to get the tech side nailed, but we've seen before skaters perform something at the test skates that looks completely different by competition 2 months later, and I can only assume they change it because of feedback from the "experts" who, it seems, are mostly wildly out of touch.

That's good to know and also a little bit frightening. The truth of the matter, as I see it, is that some Russian Ice dance experts can display a complex combination of prejudice and ineptness. Ice dancers would do well to go to international Senior B's rather than going to ridiculous test skates or both. IIRC, I/K's original Ave Maria was also much more interesting that the watered down version we finally saw at worlds. Katsalapov struggled with the original choreography based on the versions I've seen so it appears it was tempered down to suit.

"wildly out of touch", you are too kind.
 
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lennicky

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Karponosov is not happy at all with how things are going. He says the bad results are due to bad basics, a weak second group of coaches, boring programs, poor discipline among the athletes in regards to adhering to their training regimen, and a reluctance to have any sort of competition within the groups.

http://ffkm.ru/index.php/bulletin/582-01-06-15

I partially agree with Karponosov. It´s true that russian ice dance programs weren´t as good as other countries´ones ( maybe the only exception was I/Z SD) and that some ice dancers made important technical mistakes last season. But in his case, I would add that he doesn´t have enough chemistry with Sinitsina. To my mind, He isn´t a good dancer ( I thought it when he skated with Illynik and I am going on thinking it) and if something showed the interchange of pairs between I/K and S/Z was who were the good and the bad members in each pair.
 

Abraxis12345

Final Flight
Joined
Apr 18, 2014
[/B]

For the millionth time what I'm alluding to here isn't a conspiracy but simply incompetence. How can a competitive free dance have two passages where the skaters do practically nothing but skate up and down a rink in a simple hand to hand hold with very little attention paid to any degree of complexity or interesting choreography? With other music and another mood of course its going to look better as an EX, but this is not an EX it is a competitive program. That's my point. Considering that four years ago Piper Giles and Poirier were not the skaters they are today and that Sweet Dreams program is still more interesting than what I/Z had this year why was this given the go ahead? If Najarro could have challenged them why not Averbuch? Simple answer, he was not a great ice dance choreographer for this pair. As this was seen from the beginning why weren't they given better material from the get go? They knew from the beginning that The FD was not comparable to the SD and the FED did nothing about it, but continually bemoan the loss of I/K. That was nuts, I/K are no more. So if there is any conspiracy theorizing on my part, this would be it. That's all.

First off, the SD was a set rhythm and they were very fortunate to work with someone whose specialty is mainly spanish style choreography and that the rhythm and the spanish style just so happened to suit them. With the FD, they didn't want to do dramatic so they had to go in a different direction. Elena herself said it took them forever to find the music that everyone thought would work, so it wasn't merely Averbukh sitting on his thumbs but 6 people who had no clue what would suit the couple. They thought lyrical snot was the easiest to skate to at the time, and they soon realized that lyrical snot does not suit them at all.

Second, Christopher Dean was one of Gilles and Donahue's coaches and had also choreographed Crone and Poirier's last free dance, so he had a better idea of what would work with them as opposed to Averbukh working with someone (Ilinykh) whom he last worked with when that person was 11.

Third, Julia Andreeva, an ISU judge and a friend of Kustarova's (so she isn't actively out to sabotage IZ) said there was a huge improvement in IZ's skating between the test skates and the Grand Prix. What Averbukh gave them was what they could skate at the time and apparently, even that might have seemed challenging at the time.

And finally, I seem to recall you accusing Averbukh of sabotaging IZ, saying that he purposely gave them a bad free dance.
 
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