No, it's just that drivingmissdaisy stated earlier, that judges compensate more difficult combos with higher PCS. And this might be true and it would make sense also. It should affect at least "Choreography / Composition / Interpretation" and maybe "Performance / Execution". A skater should be rewarded if he/she's able to do a variety of combos and difficult combos imho. And the TES don't reflect that. If it would be otherwise, every skater who's doing two 2A's and two 3T's in combination anyway in the FP would be stupid not to do two 2A-3T combos. And as much as I personally like this combo, it would be boring as hell.
Will Lipnitskaya pull off a comeback?
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No it isn't, but jumping difficulty can lend itself to higher skating skills scores (because it requires more speed/control to execute triples vs. doubles), transitions scores (because obviously transitions that go into/out of harder elements are more impressive and difficult), and as you said performance/execution (a program that's triples should score better than if that performance was all doubles). Arguably, Choreography marks should be higher if difficult elements are balanced throughout the program too, instead of frontloaded - and also if difficult elements are woven into the choreography instead of just reeled off in succession, CH marks should be higher. Mediocre spins would also adversely affect PCS as it detracts from the overall aesthetics of the program.
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I'm sorry but I don't agree that more difficult TES, variety of combos, etc...should have any greater influence on PCS than any other jumps do. I do agree that landing your jumps will affect PCS because it lends itself and is influential to multiple facets of component scoring but it doesn't seem fair to award more based on difficulty. The difficultly should only be reflected in the overall score within the TES thru BV and GOE. That is my point in all of this.
For example...Liza stayed with 3t-3t all season but was doing it exceptionally well. Are we supposed to give Julia a PCS bonus simply because she did a 3z-3t by the end? Maybe based on execution one should get an advantage or based on the transitions into the jump or back into the program one should get an advantage but I just don't feel the difficulty should apply. It's already been accounted for in the TES.
Although if we applied this type of thinking and PCS was awarded for difficult spinners too....then maybe I could put my impartiality aside for a bit
For example...Liza stayed with 3t-3t all season but was doing it exceptionally well. Are we supposed to give Julia a PCS bonus simply because she did a 3z-3t by the end? Maybe based on execution one should get an advantage or based on the transitions into the jump or back into the program one should get an advantage but I just don't feel the difficulty should apply. It's already been accounted for in the TES.
Although if we applied this type of thinking and PCS was awarded for difficult spinners too....then maybe I could put my impartiality aside for a bit
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I'm sorry but I don't agree that more difficult TES, variety of combos, etc...should have any greater influence on PCS than any other jumps do. I do agree that landing your jumps will affect PCS because it lends itself and is influential to multiple facets of component scoring but it doesn't seem fair to award more based on difficulty. The difficultly should only be reflected in the overall score within the TES thru BV and GOE. That is my point in all of this.
For example...Liza stayed with 3t-3t all season but was doing it exceptionally well. Are we supposed to give Julia a PCS bonus because she did a 3z-3t by the end? Maybe based on execution one should get an advantage or based on the transitions into the jump or back into the program one should get an advantage but I just don't feel the difficulty should or apply. It's already accounted for in the TES.
Although if we applied this type of thinking and PCS was awarded for difficult spinners too....then maybe I could put my impartiality aside for a bit
What about skating skills? Wouldn't doing more difficult combinations well (key here is well) indicate better skating skills? Please know this is intended philosophical, and not argumentative.
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I have to agree with this: one big change brought by the IJS (one of its positive aspects, actually) is that TES and PCS have to be judged separately (and that's why I would be favorable to separate judging panels, too) and when we say for example that falls should affect the PE mark we are not talking about falls from the technical point of view, but we are considering them just "interruptions" that disrupt the choreography, while a cleanly-executed element doesn't, and that's why a program with multiple falls should receive lower PE/CH (and in some cases even IN) marks.I'm sorry but I don't agree that more difficult TES, variety of combos, etc...should have any greater influence on PCS than any other jumps do. I do agree that landing your jumps will affect PCS because it lends itself and is influential to multiple facets of component scoring but it doesn't seem fair to award more based on difficulty. The difficultly should only be reflected in the overall score within the TES thru BV and GOE. That is my point in all of this.
For example...Liza stayed with 3t-3t all season but was doing it exceptionally well. Are we supposed to give Julia a PCS bonus because she did a 3z-3t by the end? Maybe based on execution one should get an advantage or based on the transitions into the jump or back into the program one should get an advantage but I just don't feel the difficulty should or apply. It's already accounted for in the TES.
Although if we applied this type of thinking and PCS was awarded for difficult spinners too....then maybe I could put my impartiality aside for a bit
This also implies that in order to judge PCS in a perfect way a judge should consider the program without the technical elements, considering of course the transitions in and out of the jumps and the placement of the elements, but eliminating the elements themselves (both their difficulty and their execution).
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Too soon to tell. But I'm definitely rooting for Julia this season! I could see her coming back better than ever or fizzling out, I don't want to jinx her by predicting one or the other, but it will certainly be exciting to watch!
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I don't see how in PCS because hasn't the difficulty of the combo already been addressed in the TES score by BV and hopefully GOE if it is done well. Thereby separating itself in a points standpoint from lesser or even deficiently to greater combos. Also not to be argumentative myself but just how does 3t-3t vs 3f-3t vs 2a-3t reflect a difference in SS. I'm not sure I see how that could be applied. If so then again....wouldn't difficult spins really shoot the SS's thru the roof more than anything. That is a lot of blade control on display too.
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The difficulty of a combo isn't only about the individual elements, it's also about which elements are paired up. A 3T is much harder to do after a 3Z than a 2A, but the value of that 3T is the same in both combos. It shouldn't be.
I'm pretty sure judges are favourably influenced by great spins also. If I were a judge I would be. And if a skater is able to pull off a 2L as second jump in a combo, which is really not necessary for a good TES score I would also be favourably influenced by that. Variety really improves the overall impression imho.Although if we applied this type of thinking and PCS was awarded for difficult spinners too....then maybe I could put my impartiality aside for a bit
And Julia is really pretty good in that regard, but there's room to improve still.
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This may make me look like a giant smartass but isn't the 3t at the end of a 3t-3t harder than the first. Do we need to address that too? Basically are we suggesting that we need to give extra points for all jumps done in combination especially the last one? I personally don't know how to feel about multiple values/situational scores of a single element like a 3t. I've never really considered it before TBH. Your point isn't lost on me though but I will stand firm in that I don't want points of this nature awarded at a judges discretion to a skaters component score. We already have that with GOE and the bullets which are 100% at the judges discretion how many bullets actually make up a +1 ,+2, or +3.
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I kinda agree that harder jumps should be rewarded, but honestly, the system is already too complicated for random people to understand. Adding different values for jumps depending on the first jump of the combo is way too much stuff - because the 3T for example would have tons of different base values.
Dunno, just not sure if adding extra complexity will make it any better
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I think this is why it probably isn't included. The scoring is already somewhat difficult for avid fans to decipher, and almost incomprehensible for the casual viewer.
The skaters do try to do the very hardest combos. Yuna upgraded her 3F/3T to a 3Z/3T in 2010, and even though it didn't earn her more points in BV I'm sure she hoped the added difficulty would be rewarded somewhere.
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But with only so many jumping passes allowed just having the freedom to add jumps into combination is in it of itself a reward. The selection of which jumps to use, at what point of the program, solo and /or in combination are all freedoms that have give and take associated with them. As soon as we start handing out points selectively won't we kind of run a risk of everyone training the same elements and as a result the already limited format of the current "free" skate programs may constrict even further.
I feel that there are 3t-3t combo that are worthy of more points than some 3f-3t's in terms of rewarding P/E scores go. Like does it impact the performance, draw a district highlight, lend itself for a good transition based on its quality. PCS to me is a quality of the program as a whole score while TES represents a balance of difficulty and quality of an element.
I think we all kind of agree that Execution/Performance should be impacted by quality of elements but I just think a well landed triple-triple should receive the same performance enhancement as any other well landed triple-triple. I don't really believe difficulty adds to a programs cohesiveness or effectiveness. At least not more so than BV already denotes.
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It's not too complicated for people to understand. If someone does a more difficult combination jump they get more points. I don't think hardly any spectators have been confused, going all the way back to 1992, that Kristi Yamaguchi doing a 3Lutz+3Toe put her on a higher technical level than someone doing a 3Toe+3Toe. Same for the men with the 3Axel+3Toe when that was all the rage.
You wouldn't add different base values, per se, you just increase the value of each jump by a set amount. Someone could sit down and write the entire table of values for every jump combination in every instance, but it would be a waste of space. The computer automatically calculates it and the skaters can calculate for themselves if they think a certain combination they want to try is worth it.
For example, from the set of values I've created, let's compared how 3Lutz+3Toe and solo 3Toe would be scored, as compared to 3Toe+3Toe and solo 3Lutz:
*First Jump (for less than a Triple Axel) - receives no bonus if the second jump is a single, 5% bonus if it’s a Double, 8% bonus if it’s a Triple, 12% bonus if it’s a Quad.
*Second Jump (if it is a Toeloop or Salchow) - receives a 5% bonus if the first jump was less than a Triple, 10% bonus if the first jump was a Triple Toeloop or Triple Salchow, 15% bonus if the first jump was a Triple Loop, Triple Flip, or Triple Lutz, 25% bonus if the first jump was a Triple Axel, 30% bonus if the first jump was a Quad. If the second jump is a Quad, it receives an additional 15% bonus.
My scale of values has 3Lutz at 5.7 and 3Toe at 3.4, so the 3Lutz+3Toe and solo 3Toe would be worth 13.47, and the 3Toe+3Toe and solo 3Lutz would be worth 13.11 -- not a huge boost but enough to make difference, especially when combined with the fact that doing a 3Lutz+3Toe means you are "opening up" other jump opportunities (can do another 3Toe in combination, you can now repeat the 3Lutz without doing another combination).
In the Short Program, someone doing 3Lutz+3Toe and 3Flip would put their base value up to 15.07 -- that's 2 points higher than the easier 3Toe+3Toe and solo 3Lutz option (plus slightly higher +GOE scaling for the combination, since I put Loop/Flip/Lutz a step above Toeloop/Salchow in that regard). The "second half" bonus in the SP should also be more restrictive, as it's too easy to earn extra points that way right now.
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BoP: That's perfect :agree:
I could agree with the added points but it can't just be random PCS boosts on a judges whim.
I could agree with the added points but it can't just be random PCS boosts on a judges whim.
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As long as there is a triple-triple I'm fine with that. But what if a skater does two 2A-3T's in the FP? This is probably a very sly way to max out the BV, max out the GOE, but should this be rewarded? I'm happy if the PCS are reduced because of something like that. Or lifted, because a skater does all kinds of triples. Or lifted because all spins are level 4 and have good GOE. The PCS are about holistic aspects of a program and TES looks at each element separately. There has to be some adjustment in certain cases.
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I think it can be argued that is a skater is executing more difficult jumps with the same ease as others are doing less difficult jumps, they are showing a higher level of skating skills. I actually agree with you on spins though, more difficult spins well executed to seem to at least in theory show better skating skills.
To be honest Skating Skills feels like the odd man out of the PCS bunch. To me skating skills seems very technical, and seems odd mixed with with the performance aspects. But it is there so we make the best of it I guess. On one hand I don't want the tech side to leak, but at the same time it is hard in my eyes to not think doing more difficult stuff is showing better skating skills - that was part of why I asked, trying to make sense of it all.
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2A+3T would receive a lower bonus than more difficult combinations. If the Long Program rules also appropriately allowed for optional elements, with 2 two-jump combinations being the base amount required in terms of combination jumps, that means a skater would also have to spend one of their optional slots on another combination jump if they wanted to repeat another Triple jump in a program with multiple 2A+3T.
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In hope she comes out strong this year. I like her skating and she is very talented. She just has to learn how to hold it all together as do so many others. She is such an intense little girl that maybe she needs to skate to some happy music this year.
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That's a good question. If you rotate four times in the air are you exhibiting better skating skills than if you rotate only three times? Or are you just doing more difficult acrobatics?
To me, skating skills means blade to ice. Even in spinning, although the blade does not leave the ice, still, you are not doing anything particularly intricate or interesting with your edges. Given that the IJS wants to keep everything in its own compartment -- this much for a jump, that much for swaying in time to the music, something else for skating skills (stroking, turns. etc.), it seems like the judges ought to strive to evaluate each department separately in isolation from the others.
Judges don't, of course. They are wiser than the scoring system that they are attempting to wield.
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