29th Practice incident discussion

dia said:

Sorry I don't understand Russian and I don't know about their trash. I just said that I found a discussion on this forum about these two skaters.

Click to expand...

It's Ok, I apologise if I got too fierce for a moment - I understand you don't know the details. But take my word for it - you don't really want to believe everything that gets said in Russian-language media now. There's an unbelievable amount of hate and spite there.

Close this thread please ..

Fayruza said:

It's Ok, I apologise if I got too fierce for a moment - I understand you don't know the details. But take my word for it - you don't really want to believe everything that gets said in Russian-language media now. There's an unbelievable amount of hate and spite there.

Click to expand...

Don't worry. I didn't believe that mess either.

We really should not speculate especially when there is no footage of the "barking" incident. Yes Denis may have been daydreaming and did this stupid things but I guess Yuzu didn't really have to make it such a big issue. Brian could have talked to Frank about it first (I dunno if he did), and afterwards Denis may apologise for that and that's it, period. I agree too that the number of skaters in a practice session should be reduced.

naz said:

This incident is really blown out of proportion.

Click to expand...

It kind of isn't blown out of proportion unless you think concussion is a no big deal. We've seen what collisions in practices/warm ups can do and one of those incidents was with Yuzuru. Hardly surprising he cares about safety then, unlike Ten.

Look at the text, this is a direct quote, not journalistic interpretation:

"We talked (after the first incident) and I said, 'Maybe the rink is smaller,'" Ten said. "But honestly, I didn't even notice until the end because I thought there was a lot of space between us."

Click to expand...

So Yuzuru tried handling it the right way at first. Ten's answer though is frankly, preposterous and a dig at Hanyu - maybe the rink is smaller is just obviously a remark made by someone who couldn't care less and does not in any way care to alter his attitude. Take a look at the few practice videos, he does skate closer to other skaters doing their run throughs, not just Yuzuru, others too. People who were there at the practice sessions have noted this. That he goes on taking pot shots at Yuzuru through that coach nonsense says everything about how much he cares about the issue.

Frankly, taking it to the Federation level is exactly what should be done as Ten doesn't seem willing to pay attention. It's not really a big deal, he isn't required to not practice for goodness sake, just a little more care and self-awareness about his own actions. Everyone else seems to do it. Since he's not willing, then what exactly is Yuzuru supposed to do, after 3 such incidents but this? It's potentially extremely dangerous and it's so easily rectified. Or should we wait for another concussion that may not end well? Honestly, I get Ten is under pressure due to his own skating but I've lost a lot of respect for him due to this attitude.

begin said:

It seems we're already here
I'm not surprised that Denis tried to downplay it but I am surprised Yuzuru would go out to the media and accuse Ten of doing it on purpose. Him and the JSF have really escalated the issue.

Click to expand...

I agree it is surprising, but at the same time, maybe that should mean something. Yuzuru has always been very polite and kind to his fellow skaters, for him to make an out of character statement to mean means we should at least listen to him. It is certainly possible that it was a misunderstanding/miscommunication, but for him to make this statement means we likely should listen at least and see what we can learn from it. There are skaters who would not be taken as seriously because they just say stuff like this.

Specifically I am thinking of the TSL interview with Tracy Wilson. She said that when Hanyu first came to the Cricket Club there was a similar incident where the other skater as in the wrong, barked at Hanyu, and Hanyu was the one to apologize respectfully. It sounded like they had to tell him to not be a pushover and that it is ok to have the right of way.

This is not to say Ten is in the wrong, I want to make that clear, just that something happened that should be listened to and we should maybe look at what we can do to be better in the future. Even if Ten was no doing in on purpose, it is still an issue for others to think that, and it would be better to find a system where everyone is happy.

I don´t see a need to close this thread as long as everything is handle with respect.

Here is what we know:
1.It isn´t the first time that Ten got in the way of Hanyu since practices in Boston started, per Karne at least 2 or 3 times more this have happened.

2.At first Hanyu tried to talk with Dennis. It since that this approach didn´t work.

3.After COC last year not only Yuzuru but I think we all should not try to brush out the subject as "they didn´t crash so it doesn´t matter" because when two skater crash it isn´t pretty, at just before the most important competition of the year you don´t want a skater getting hurt, no matter who he or she is. It took a long time for Yuzuru and Han Yan to get back in form after the crash last year, and even then they weren´t at their best.

4.An official notice from Japanese Federation is the right way to go specialy of they have documentation of all the incidents that have happened during practice, once is accident, two your are not paying attention and three you just not care. Dennis Ten is not new in the rodeo, he knows better.

karne said:

Wow, that's a terrible answer from Denis. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH how many people you train with! It is BASIC ETIQUETTE. Person who has the music playing has RIGHT OF WAY. It is so down even to the smallest club rink. He should know that. I just lost a ton of respect for him.

Yes, there were other close shaves. Max and Javier had a near-collision (though neither was in music) on day one. What did they do? Javier fell, Max turned back and apologised, they hugged, and got on with their sessions. Done, dusted. Shoma and Yuzuru had a near miss on the Tuesday night session when Hanyu fell and slid across Shoma's path. They nodded to each other and moved on. Max had a near shave when Adam went flying by in program while he was winding up for a quad: Max flattened himself against the wall in a quite ungainly position, let Adam go by without a flinch, and circled around to start his quad setup again.

Brendan, the "least experienced" championship skater in Yuzuru and Denis' practice group, had pretty well no near misses, was able to stay well out of the way of everyone in music, and everyone kept out of his way when it was his turn. He still got a lot of work done including triple Axels and quad toes. Coincidence? Or just Brendan following the etiquette of the session?

Click to expand...

I agree with every word of yours.

It's simple.

1. Sharp sense to safety is EVERYTHING. When you say something like 'no one gets hurt so no big deal' it's terribly a wrong attitude to protect yourself and the other skaters. You have to be careful as much as you can and take it as an alert everytime you got stuck to these situations so you will remind yourself to do a better job next time. You don't drive your car and block the way and lead to dramas and then say 'What's your problem? No one gets hurt!'

2. We all know the person who is arranged for his/her runthru session should be given some priority in the rink, of course, as much as the situation is allowed. Hanyu's route to his 3A in SP is not rocket science or mystery like howto build a pyramid that no one can figure out and Ten did mention they had a discussion about it previous day. Plus he did come to similar situations before the day too. So he obviously not a blank paper to what Hanyu's doing during runthru.

3. This was the third time in 2 sessions within 2 days.

4. Hanyu has never shouted, barked or loudly spoken to people, at least in public context.

5. Any thoughts Implying Hanyu is over-sensitive after the COC collision sounds weird. This is not the first time he bumped into other skaters after the COC incident. He and Daisuke Murakami collided to each other too recently in National. He did not shouted to anyone that time. He said that was an accident. I saw him being quite closed to other skaters like Boyang Jin in GPF practice also that he had not freaked out at all, he even reacted like there's nothing happened. He did 'fly over' and 'hang' on the board one time during practice when a skater swiftly came up to him in an event very closely after the COC incident(probably nhk 2014), apparently he's still affected by the collision, but he still did not shout or bark to people.

6. Hanyu trains at Cricket Club, there's a lot of people. According to some footage from Japanese TV shows, I believe, at least, more than enough of 5-6 skaters in the rink at each session. Hanyu also used to train in a small and packed rink in Sendai where there were 6-year-old, men and women on ice together. Most importantly, he's not a newbie for international competition and none to an official practice. And Ten neither. I suppose veterans know what is the usual practice and best practice to keep all people in the rink are safe.

I am not going to say anything about intention. That's not fair to Ten for me to judge. I know nothing about his mind. But it's Hanyu's every right to shout at him when looking at what Ten said to the media, I think Hanyu is so terribly correct to raise the thing again - obviously Ten is not having a correct attitude in regards to safety issue. Someone needs to bring it out, this is not just for Hanyu himself, it's for everyone. Collision is not rare in the rink especially during practice sessions. They can only try hard to avoid it. The main point here is to 'try hard'. No one will blame you if you are not repeating it again and again continuously. You reflect to your own little mistake, say sorry, give a little hug like Javier and Max, and then next time you will just be careful. That's all. But every improvement will only happen if people take things serious and give an effort to it. If people think it's no big deal to block the others' ways or crash with the others, problem can't be fixed by just reducing skaters on ice in practice unless we just allow one skater there each time.

Repeating it once again - It's not just about Hanyu, it's about everyone's sake.

Somehow I just never expected TEN and HANYU to be the skating Mean Girls. Like anyone but these two. Shows how looks could be deceiving.

StitchMonkey said:

I agree it is surprising, but at the same time, maybe that should mean something. Yuzuru has always been very polite and kind to his fellow skaters, for him to make an out of character statement to mean means we should at least listen to him. It is certainly possible that it was a misunderstanding/miscommunication, but for him to make this statement means we likely should listen at least and see what we can learn from it. There are skaters who would not be taken as seriously because they just say stuff like this.

Specifically I am thinking of the TSL interview with Tracy Wilson. She said that when Hanyu first came to the Cricket Club there was a similar incident where the other skater as in the wrong, barked at Hanyu, and Hanyu was the one to apologize respectfully. It sounded like they had to tell him to not be a pushover and that it is ok to have the right of way.

This is not to say Ten is in the wrong, I want to make that clear, just that something happened that should be listened to and we should maybe look at what we can do to be better in the future. Even if Ten was no doing in on purpose, it is still an issue for others to think that, and it would be better to find a system where everyone is happy.

Click to expand...

I don't want to be dismissive about the issue, but Yuzuru made a very heavy accusation that seems unfair to Denis. It's possible that the media got an answer from him at a bad time. Maybe he was a still heated at the time and just said whatever came to mind? Idk.

OTOH the JSF is giving me some laughs. Their complaint is quite...ironic.

whatif said:

Somehow I just never expected TEN and HANYU to be the skating Mean Girls. Like anyone but these two. Shows how looks could be deceiving.

Click to expand...

More like it shows they are humans who make mistakes/say unfortunate words.

begin said:

I don't want to be dismissive about the issue, but Yuzuru made a very heavy accusation that seems unfair to Denis. It's possible that the media got an answer from him at a bad time. Maybe he was a still heated at the time and just said whatever came to mind? Idk.

OTOH the JSF is giving me some laughs. Their complaint is quite...ironic.

Click to expand...

May I know what's the accusation? I only know he said he was not in a good mood (mental form? something like that?). In case if he's not absolutely pointing that Ten was meant to do it, I found it totally no problem to blame Ten's careless and carefree attitude. We are talking about a camel spin, sharp blade facing out to people, to someone who is going to jump in a good speed. Even talking in general but not this specific case, nothing sounds more ironic and horrible than Ten's feedback to the incident.

Obviously Hanyu had tried to speak with him somewhat peacefully before but it happened again. What should he do?

Please, it's dangerous. And it's not just dangerous but will be becoming fatal when people just don't care like this. It's not cat fight, it's about safety.

I understand the importance of safety here. But I found the finger-pointing solely against Ten is a bit unfair. First, the incidents involves two people. You can't say it's only Ten's fault. Second, things can be solved in a civilized and private manner. It seems Hanyu made it very public. Yelling, punching the boards, telling media Ten's doing it on purpose, and asking for an official warning. Is that really the right way to go? Why not try to communicate with both coaches? They are more mature and can handle these things. The way Hanyu is dealing with the problem, well, it's a bit of bad taste.

begin said:

I Yuzuru made a very heavy accusation that seems unfair to Denis.

Click to expand...

If you're talking about the intentional part, he actually said "may be (probably be)" intentional. Take a look here
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?35500-Yuzuru-Hanyu&p=1401117&viewfull=1#post1401117

Japanese is not an easy language to translate. I understand wording intentional here as more in the sense that even though aware of the issue Ten isn't correcting it, he doesn't care and is doing his thing causing it to happen yet again (basically, he's being negligent, it's the very definition of it tbh), and not in the sense that he wants to injure Hanyu so he put himself in the path of his 3A. At least that's my take on it.

apple123 said:

I understand the importance of safety here. But I found the finger-pointing solely against Ten is a bit unfair. First, the incidents involves two people. You can't say it's only Ten's fault. Second, things can be solved in a civilized and private manner. It seems Hanyu made it very public. Yelling, punching the boards, telling media Ten's doing it on purpose, and asking for an official warning. Is that really the right way to go? Why not try to communicate with both coaches? They are more mature and can handle these things. The way Hanyu is dealing with the problem, well, it's a bit of bad taste.

Click to expand...

He did, Denis didn´t listen

"We talked (after the first incident) and I said, 'Maybe the rink is smaller,'" Ten said. "But honestly, I didn't even notice until the end because I thought there was a lot of space between us."

Click to expand...

apple123 said:

I understand the importance of safety here. But I found the finger-pointing solely against Ten is a bit unfair. First, the incidents involves two people. You can't say it's only Ten's fault. Second, things can be solved in a civilized and private manner. It seems Hanyu made it very public. Yelling, punching the boards, telling media Ten's doing it on purpose, and asking for an official warning. Is that really the right way to go? Why not try to communicate with both coaches? They are more mature and can handle these things. The way Hanyu is dealing with the problem, well, it's a bit of bad taste.

Click to expand...

The thing is that we don't know the full details, I do think the way this incident has been treated it's not the best and it leaves a bad taste for us the public, but again we don't know the full picture so I don't think we should be quick to judge any of them.

Denis' whole answer to the incident is quite worrying. I think Japanese fed going for a warning is the appropriate answer.

apple123 said:

I understand the importance of safety here. But I found the finger-pointing solely against Ten is a bit unfair. First, the incidents involves two people. You can't say it's only Ten's fault. Second, things can be solved in a civilized and private manner. It seems Hanyu made it very public. Yelling, punching the boards, telling media Ten's doing it on purpose, and asking for an official warning. Is that really the right way to go? Why not try to communicate with both coaches? They are more mature and can handle these things. The way Hanyu is dealing with the problem, well, it's a bit of bad taste.

Click to expand...

Hanyu was doing the runthru. He did deserve little priority in the rink at that moment. Reasonably saying that came to a limited extent, but looking at the situation that time his route was fixed and predictable and had no signs of changing. And at the end it's Hanyu who went around to avoid Ten. What and how much responsibility should Hanyu bare? What should he be supposed to do?

That was the third time happened in 2 sessions. Hanyu had a little chat with Ten a day before this serious break-out. Then it happened.

idk if it's bad taste or not. But if it's about someone who can recognized own's fault when you had tried to do it in private, I don't find it should be seriously blamed for going it public or someone may think it's noisy when he problem kept happening and even getting worse. At the end of the day, to me, safety issue is larger than everything not to mention taste which, I think, it's subjective. What bug me out is Ten's carefree attitude. His reply to media somewhat makes me thinking it's bloody correct to draw people attention to it while Ten has just thinks he's alright to do that. But the fact is that, no, it's not. And JSF does take care of this now.

Is it ugly? Probably yes. But is it right to not letting people say or react to something crucial just as to keep things 'classy' and 'beautiful'? I don't think so.

I haven't seen Hanyu saying Ten is on purpose yet. Can I have the source please? I just saw a Japanese news report said they (the newspaper) have the video showing Ten was noted to Hanyu's route to 3A before entering his spin, but the video has not been shown. Thus I think it's not an appropriate time to determine anything about intention, but media would love to do that.

kelleigh said:

I haven't seen Hanyu saying Ten is on purpose yet. Can I have the source please? I just saw a Japanese news report said they (the newspaper) have the video showing Ten was noted to Hanyu's route to 3A before entering his spin, but the video has not been shown. Thus I think it's not an appropriate time to determine anything about intention, but media would love to do that.

Click to expand...

Yikes on that.

Here's the source of the "intentional" I believe
http://www.sanspo.com/sports/news/20160331/fgr16033116360009-n1.html

but as I said, I don't think the meaning is on purpose, but more negligent (disregarding the earlier warnings and not being mindful of safety).

Nice try. 故意 means nothing more or less than intentional. Do you think you're only Japanese Speaker in this thread?