2017 Worlds Spots

Skye · Apr 2, 2016

I think the current system is not bad. Yes, it is a pity the US men could not gain 3 spots despite high placements of all 3 skaters, but in the end it works out as witnessed by the Japanese men this year. As for the French, they have their own separate (and IMO redicously strict) criteria for Worlds, which actually hinders young and upcoming skaters to gain more experience by competing at this level. They are just as bad (if not worse) as the Chinese Fed screwing Yu/Jin.

Chemistry66 · Apr 2, 2016

Ladies' spots added. I can't believe everything is over.

MiRé · Apr 2, 2016

Sad to see Korean ladies down to 1 spot...... Nationals would be interesting

jkun · Apr 2, 2016

I also think the rule saying one 1 skater placing 1st or 2nd gets you three spots is confusing. You shouldn't be allowed to move +2, only +1. 1->2 and 2->3. It doesn't make sense to punish a county for sending a 2nd individual. For example, Javier's 1st win should get Spain 3 spots, but because Javier Raya placed too low, Spain will only keep its 2 spots. They should get +1, just because of Javi's achievement.

4everchan · Apr 3, 2016

but why send 1 skater, to gain 3 spots, when you can already send 3... I know what you are talking about but can you imagine the uproar if the chinese federation had only sent their top team when they had other spots? The example works with federations who are not deep... but Chinese have 4 decent pairs right now....

dorispulaski said:
If China had sent only Sui & Han, they would have 3 spots.

This is the rule I find most puzzling. If you have one super skater, it does Not mean you have 2 more really good teams at home. (witness French dancers).

Ok, qualify one more skater for next year for top ten, to a max of 3 skaters. Maybe top 12.

TatiMax · Apr 3, 2016

dorispulaski said:
If China had sent only Sui & Han, they would have 3 spots.

This is the rule I find most puzzling. If you have one super skater, it does Not mean you have 2 more really good teams at home. (witness French dancers).

Ok, qualify one more skater for next year for top ten, to a max of 3 skaters. Maybe top 12.

Because if send one team but clinched gold it means the previous year was not good and the team upgraded.

alebi · Apr 3, 2016

dorispulaski said:
If China had sent only Sui & Han, they would have 3 spots.

This is the rule I find most puzzling. If you have one super skater, it does Not mean you have 2 more really good teams at home. (witness French dancers).

Ok, qualify one more skater for next year for top ten, to a max of 3 skaters. Maybe top 12.

And then, that's another example of what I was discussing in my post! This system can be manipulated by Federation, if they are wise enough (as France did).

From the moment you can allowed till 3 skaters/pairs from a country, you need to expand the range of points needed to reach this goal. Because if you're allowing 3 skaters/couples you easily occupy the top10 and this doesn't give a chance to other country who, maybe, send their single skater, who maybe finish in a high placement like a top12, but at the end doesn't gain anything more for its country.

People are complaining for US men result, and I agree because it's absurd.
But I want to emphasise another injustice, the one relating country who could send a single skater, who finished in top12 (WORLD ELITE) and still will have the same single spot of country who had skaters who didn't even make the free programme.
Italy in men and Kazakistan in women will have the same spot of Argentina, Armenia, Germany in men and Spain, Great Britain, Slovenia in women who had skaters out after the short programme. Think independently from the actual value of the second skater these two countries can bring. Why second Italian men or second Kazakistan lady can't participate while, for example, Argentinian Federation still will have the right to bring a skater even if they don't care one bit about it? Is this really helpful towards countries which are actually trying to develop the sport?
This system is not 100% right in the matter of meritocracy, neither towards higher level (US men), nor towards lower level (Italy men).

alebi · Apr 3, 2016

4everchan said:
i think this usually ends up evening out... Japan had only two men this year, because of underperforming last year but they go back to 3.... Spain : why not bring Raya.... it's not about the 3 spots for Spain, they only barely need 2.. so why not give a chance to Raya ???? France Ice dance... it really doesn't advantage them that much not bringing other couples.... let's say they lose a spot??? at least, the teams would still gain international experience... they have an up and coming junior team that could benefit from that... but perhaps it's a TES minimum issue....

of course the maths didn't align for us men or chinese pairs this year... but they will most likely regain their sports in time for olympics.... better to lose them now than next year....

You are forgetting an important detail. Next Worlds will decide spots for Olympics and bringing one more skater or couple will, potentially, deprive another country of a placement. I'm 100% sure France, next year, will bring more than one only ice dance team, maybe even 3. Their second and third team will not make a top 10 for sure, but maybe they'll go to the free programme, one team could finish 15th-16th.... They don't care if they'll have 2 or 3 teams in PyeongChang since they have P/C who will medal, but placing a couple 15th or 16th in Worlds deprive another country of placement points, points that can also be vital for another country to have a second spot.

Obviously France Fed can do what they want since they gain the right to bring three teams, and I'm not arguing about their decision. I'm pointing out that this points system can be manipulated depending on the cases.

MaxSwagg · Apr 3, 2016

LOOOVE how Japan is the only country with three men's spots.

Interspectator · Apr 3, 2016

MAXSwagg said:
LOOOVE how Japan is the only country with three men's spots.

Through tears and heart-break. They got it. Shoma, Yuzu, you did it. :ghug:

4everchan · Apr 3, 2016

alebi said:
You are forgetting an important detail. Next Worlds will decide spots for Olympics and bringing one more skater or couple will, potentially, deprive another country of a placement. I'm 100% sure France, next year, will bring more than one only ice dance team, maybe even 3. Their second and third team will not make a top 10 for sure, but maybe they'll go to the free programme, one team could finish 15th-16th.... They don't care if they'll have 2 or 3 teams in PyeongChang since they have P/C who will medal, but placing a couple 15th or 16th in Worlds deprive another country of placement points, points that can also be vital for another country to have a second spot.

Obviously France Fed can do what they want since they gain the right to bring three teams, and I'm not arguing about their decision. I'm pointing out that this points system can be manipulated depending on the cases.

there are many ways to look at this.... but i think the manipulation is risky and too much filled with uncertainties.... what if PC had NOT been in top 2????

I think it's always best for a federation to build depth... for instance, after VM retired, Weapo were there and got a silver at worlds.... right away.... they had a poor showing this year but in the meantime, our 3rd team got to skate in the SD.... a lot mentioned that they didn't place higher because nobody had seen them before...

Next year, Canada still has 3 spots.... they will send 3 teams.... the lowest team that didn't make the SD this year has gained experience..... and judges noticed them.... who knows, they may be Canada's team # 1 after 2018 but will already have some mileage...

I think that it is what most federations do, at least the ones who have skaters with TES minimums.... perhaps France doesn't have another team with the minimums?

- - - Updated - - -

clearly because they are the only country deserving to send 3 competitive men.

MAXSwagg said:
LOOOVE how Japan is the only country with three men's spots.

alebi · Apr 4, 2016

4everchan said:
there are many ways to look at this.... but i think the manipulation is risky and too much filled with uncertainties.... what if PC had NOT been in top 2????

I think it's always best for a federation to build depth... for instance, after VM retired, Weapo were there and got a silver at worlds.... right away.... they had a poor showing this year but in the meantime, our 3rd team got to skate in the SD.... a lot mentioned that they didn't place higher because nobody had seen them before...

Next year, Canada still has 3 spots.... they will send 3 teams.... the lowest team that didn't make the SD this year has gained experience..... and judges noticed them.... who knows, they may be Canada's team # 1 after 2018 but will already have some mileage...

I think that it is what most federations do, at least the ones who have skaters with TES minimums.... perhaps France doesn't have another team with the minimums?

I remember Alessandrini / Souquet from Euros and checked their scores. They had both technical minimums and even pretty decent high scores. I was really surprised when I didn't see them in the starting. Injured or politics? I was even more surprised when France sent their second pairs team who was completely unknown and has been really really lucky to get to the free. Two different strategies from the same federation... Considering that France has a very high reputation in dance, not in pairs, it's even more strange that they didn't want to give a chance to their second team to grow up.

Well, I don't want to start an endless discussion, I don't even want to criticize some Feds' decisions, since they have the right to do what they want. I was only pointing out the many and different problems this points system has. But it's not even a new problem and since they have never changed it and don't seem to want to, then.... We can rant as much as we want but what is done is done :confused2:

4everchan · Apr 4, 2016

interesting indeed about the pair strategy vs dance... maybe they want to make sure the junior team gets a spot and they know that pairs will remain 2 spots no matter what... but yeah... i agree with your last couple sentences....

Let's hope that the feds decisions are always for the benefit of skaters and skating...

alebi said:
I remember Alessandrini / Souquet from Euros and checked their scores. They had both technical minimums and even pretty decent high scores. I was really surprised when I didn't see them in the starting. Injured or politics? I was even more surprised when France sent their second pairs team who was completely unknown and has been really really lucky to get to the free. Two different strategies from the same federation... Considering that France has a very high reputation in dance, not in pairs, it's even more strange that they didn't want to give a chance to their second team to grow up.

Well, I don't want to start an endless discussion, I don't even want to criticize some Feds' decisions, since they have the right to do what they want. I was only pointing out the many and different problems this points system has. But it's not even a new problem and since they have never changed it and don't seem to want to, then.... We can rant as much as we want but what is done is done :confused2:

Jammers · Apr 4, 2016

Really sucks that the US Men were all in the top 10 but still lost a spot and have the same number of spots as Canada which has nobody besides Patrick while the US had a world quality team sitting at home injured all of whom have been to Worlds like Jason and Josh or qualified like Nathan.

Violetti · Apr 4, 2016

alebi said:
But I want to emphasise another injustice, the one relating country who could send a single skater, who finished in top12 (WORLD ELITE) and still will have the same single spot of country who had skaters who didn't even make the free programme.
Italy in men and Kazakistan in women will have the same spot of Argentina, Armenia, Germany in men and Spain, Great Britain, Slovenia in women who had skaters out after the short programme. Think independently from the actual value of the second skater these two countries can bring. Why second Italian men or second Kazakistan lady can't participate while, for example, Argentinian Federation still will have the right to bring a skater even if they don't care one bit about it? Is this really helpful towards countries which are actually trying to develop the sport?
This system is not 100% right in the matter of meritocracy, neither towards higher level (US men), nor towards lower level (Italy men).

But the Argentinian qualified. It is right for him. Finland could not send any man as no one qualified (even though they have skated for years and years) and I am sure Finnish Fed would have been eager to send a man skater. It is no more easy to qualify for the Worlds.

I think many ladies who did not qualify for the free had the possibility to qualify but they made too many mistakes in this competition. And always some do not qualify. Who would have thought neither of French women would not qualify? Or Natalie?

There have to be limit somewhere and also possibility for all countries to participate if their skaters qualify.

4everchan · Apr 4, 2016

wait a minute...

Canada has 2 skaters struggling with health/growth... both of them have hit world #5 spots in previous years... which is better than Josh... so please... Kevin Reynolds, winner of 4CC ahead of Hanyu, is coming back from hip surgery... and Nam, well he was 5th last year, and if he manages to deal with his growing pains has all potential in the world at 17 y o .

So, Canada could also argue that they need the 3 spots...

Jammers said:
Really sucks that the US Men were all in the top 10 but still lost a spot and have the same number of spots as Canada which has nobody besides Patrick while the US had a world quality team sitting at home injured all of whom have been to Worlds like Jason and Josh or qualified like Nathan.

Osmond4gold · Apr 4, 2016

4everchan said:
wait a minute...

Canada has 2 skaters struggling with health/growth... both of them have hit world #5 spots in previous years... which is better than Josh... so please... Kevin Reynolds, winner of 4CC ahead of Hanyu, is coming back from hip surgery... and Nam, well he was 5th last year, and if he manages to deal with his growing pains has all potential in the world at 17th.

So, Canada could also argue that they need the 3 spots...

How quickly some people state information as "fact". Thanks 4everchan being the voice of reason.

"Nobody but Chan", Jammers? Nam bested Rippon in last year's worlds and def. has the ability of Top 10 once he settles in with the "new view".

alebi · Apr 7, 2016

Violetti said:
But the Argentinian qualified. It is right for him. Finland could not send any man as no one qualified (even though they have skated for years and years) and I am sure Finnish Fed would have been eager to send a man skater. It is no more easy to qualify for the Worlds.

I think many ladies who did not qualify for the free had the possibility to qualify but they made too many mistakes in this competition. And always some do not qualify. Who would have thought neither of French women would not qualify? Or Natalie?

There have to be limit somewhere and also possibility for all countries to participate if their skaters qualify.

No, Argentina didn't "really" qualify. Every country is free to send one skater if he/she has the minimum, they don't "actually" gain a spot during the previous competition. Even Italy has other men with the minimum (so they could have the right to) but they can't participate even if our skater this year made the free programme and even if our skater this year finished in a world elite position. This is the "SLIGHTLY" difference between the two situations.
Take France's women situation... A bad day for your skaters and suddenly you lose your spots. But that's the sport, because they both underperformed, it's not that they did well and gain nothing anyway. Ironically, it seems easier to lose a spot instead of earning one more.

And let's don't start a discussion about how easy/hard is to get the minimum since there are competitions made on purpose, where judges are really generous... You can skate bad all season and hit just one competition and you can go to Worlds if you're from a "marginal" Federation. You can skate decent all the season and don't go to Worlds because your country still has only a limited number of spots, even if your Fed is investing in the discipline and your skaters do a decent/good previous world championship.

People are all complaining about the more obvious, blatant injustice (USA men situation) but it's not the only one. And a system which has more than one flaw need to be revised. Unfortunately it won't be the case.

p.s. I don't want to sound harsh about Argentina or even less about Denis Margalik (who is still so young and I wish him all the best for the future!). I only needed one as an example but it could have been anyone :giveup:

oceanle · Apr 7, 2016

I don't understand why if you have a skater medal, that country should automatically allow 3 skaters

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4everchan · Apr 8, 2016

that's old rules... no longer works like this... read the first post of the thread

oceanle said:
I don't understand why if you have a skater medal, that country should automatically allow 3 skaters

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2017 Worlds Spots

Skye

Chemistry66

Mmmmm, tacos.

MiRé

Match Penalty

jkun

4everchan

TatiMax

alebi

alebi

MaxSwagg

Match Penalty

Interspectator

4everchan

alebi

4everchan

Jammers

Violetti

4everchan

Osmond4gold

alebi

oceanle

4everchan

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