2017 Worlds Spots

oceanle said:

I don't understand why if you have a skater medal, that country should automatically allow 3 skaters

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That's incorrect. If your country has only one skater/team and it finishes in a top 2 (so only gold and silver) than your country earns 3 spots. If, ironically, your country has a top2 but sent two or more skaters/teams and the second one didn't do well your country loses the third spot. In my previous posts I brought out the two cases of France (in dance) and Spain (in men). They were both allowed to bring till to 3 skaters/teams here, but their Federations made different decisions and even if they ended up with a gold medal they earned different spots for next Worlds.

Oh the poor Korean girl sent to Helsinki will have the pressure of trying to get two spots for home Olympics, and will be a 'failure' for Korean media, if she doesn't succeed (quite likely)... Cruel world:noshake:

sarama said:

Oh the poor Korean girl sent to Helsinki will have the pressure of trying to get two spots for home Olympics, and will be a 'failure' for Korean media, if she doesn't succeed (quite likely)... Cruel world:noshake:

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Oh dear, does Korea not have two spots again for next year? Man, that's not going to be a good situation.

They really ought to consider creating a special olympic rule... whoever is hosting an Olympics should be able to bring two in a discipline if the individual skaters meet a technical bar quite above the technical minimums.

alebi said:

I remember Alessandrini / Souquet from Euros and checked their scores. They had both technical minimums and even pretty decent high scores. I was really surprised when I didn't see them in the starting. Injured or politics?

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Politics, I think. A&S qualified and were not selected by their own federation. France has two high quality junior dance teams, and their fed knows those teams are likely to place higher than Alessandrini & Souquet. (But, I would argue, not high enough to earn three spots anyway so, overall, this is gaming the system at the expense of their own athletes. It is not even certain that Abachkina & Thauron will wish to compete at senior worlds next season).

With regard to the men, remember that if the system were different, then Japan might well have sent three men this season. And Grant Hochstein could very well have been pushed right out of the top ten.

I like Da-bin from Korea. She seems to have a competitive head on her shoulders. She outskated more-reputed athletes in almost every competition she entered this season (except her senior debut at a Challenger event--to which she appeared to be sent without a coach). Second place at Korean Nationals was no small-time achievement this year. She medaled at both her JGPs. Then she skated solidly at 4CC's and did well in her senior debut at Worlds. Could have done even better if she had hit her money combo at the beginning of the free skate, but she finished as her country's top qualifier. That's QUITE an achievement for a young lady who began the season in juniors.

Ice Dance said:

I like Da-bin from Korea. She seems to have a competitive head on her shoulders. She outskated more-reputed athletes in almost every competition she entered this season (except her senior debut at a Challenger event--to which she appeared to be sent without a coach). Second place at Korean Nationals was no small-time achievement this year. She medaled at both her JGPs. Then she skated solidly at 4CC's and did well in her senior debut at Worlds. Could have done even better if she had hit her money combo at the beginning of the free skate, but she finished as her country's top qualifier. That's QUITE an achievement for a young lady who began the season in juniors.

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Not to mention, that short program to "Mommy, I'm a Big Girl Now!" was very entertaining!

Ice Dance said:

I like Da-bin from Korea. She seems to have a competitive head on her shoulders.

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Oh I love Da-bin and her questionable program choices! She has gorgeous technique and has rock-solid consistency. Everything else will come with time (hopefully sooner than later because there is an army of baby Koreans ready to takeover the skating world)

blue_idealist said:

Not to mention, that short program to "Mommy, I'm a Big Girl Now!" was very entertaining!

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I wouldn't have called it "entertaining"...

The system is fair because it effects all the federations equally, which is something you see so rare in figure skating.

Ice Dance said:

Politics, I think. A&S qualified and were not selected by their own federation. France has two high quality junior dance teams, and their fed knows those teams are likely to place higher than Alessandrini & Souquet. (But, I would argue, not high enough to earn three spots anyway so, overall, this is gaming the system at the expense of their own athletes. It is not even certain that Abachkina & Thauron will wish to compete at senior worlds next season).

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That's really sad to know! Basically they're trying to keep their three spots as long as they can, to give a chance to both their (for now) junior teams to debut during the Olympic season... That's quite an hazard! But if that's true, it means the French Fed has very high expectations.

Ice Dance said:

With regard to the men, remember that if the system were different, then Japan might well have sent three men this season. And Grant Hochstein could very well have been pushed right out of the top ten.

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No, I was thinking about a system that rewards countries with 2 skaters/teams in the top10 to get 3 spots (independently from the placement) and the only skater/team into top12 to get the second spot. Kozuka, the second best Japanese, finished 12th in the previous Worlds. But even if Japan had had the chance to send a third skater this year, we still had only one USA men out of top10 and the result would still be great (not clamorous but still very good), with 2 skaters in top10, but well... still not rewarding. :think:

shyne said:

The system is fair because it effects all the federations equally, which is something you see so rare in figure skating.

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So true

I support the idea taken from Athletics (I'm a huge fan of T&F and I think its system is not 100% right, but way better than FS). Let every country have a max of 3 skaters/teams if they meet the minimum technical score but combined this with the current world standings (till you have 20/25/30 competitors) or you're going to have an endless short programme
PROs: you grant high quality competition and more possibilities to countries who ACTUALLY develop the discipline (which also means who ACTUALLY support it with money, TV deals, audience etc...)
CONs: which worlds standings adopt? The one based on previous achievement? But you'll end with always the same skaters. The one based on season high scores? But we all know that different judges, in different competitions, evaluate with different scores. Do an average of the best 3 total scores? It can be possible. I'll also let countries, where many skaters meet the minimum tech, to base their decision on National trials. Until they meet the requirements, you can send who you want till a max of three.

The major cons is that it would be more difficult to spread the discipline in less common country but let be honest. A skater from an unknown country, that doesn't get incredible results, don't bring attention in its country, but letting USA, Japan or Russia have limits can reduce the popularity in countries that are the heart of the discipline. Without them figure skating can't survive, whether or not you try to bring the sport in (FOR EXAMPLE) Greece, Brasil, Thailand, Portugal etc...

alebi said:

I support the idea taken from Athletics (I'm a huge fan of T&F and I think its system is not 100% right, but way better than FS). Let every country have a max of 3 skaters/teams if they meet the minimum technical score but combined this with the current world standings (till you have 20/25/30 competitors) or you're going to have an endless short programme
PROs: you grant high quality competition and more possibilities to countries who ACTUALLY develop the discipline (which also means who ACTUALLY support it with money, TV deals, audience etc...)
CONs: which worlds standings adopt? The one based on previous achievement? But you'll end with always the same skaters. The one based on season high scores? But we all know that different judges, in different competitions, evaluate with different scores. Do an average of the best 3 total scores? It can be possible. I'll also let countries, where many skaters meet the minimum tech, to base their decision on National trials. Until they meet the requirements, you can send who you want till a max of three.

The major cons is that it would be more difficult to spread the discipline in less common country but let be honest. A skater from an unknown country, that doesn't get incredible results, don't bring attention in its country, but letting USA, Japan or Russia have limits can reduce the popularity in countries that are the heart of the discipline. Without them figure skating can't survive, whether or not you try to bring the sport in (FOR EXAMPLE) Greece, Brasil, Thailand, Portugal etc...

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But what about countries where figure skating is popular but that are still not producing top skaters right now (many European countries)? If you give more spots for USA, Japan, Russia they will be away from these countries and then there would be even less opportunities for new star skaters to rise from these countries.

alebi said:

No, Argentina didn't "really" qualify. Every country is free to send one skater if he/she has the minimum, they don't "actually" gain a spot during the previous competition. Even Italy has other men with the minimum (so they could have the right to) but they can't participate even if our skater this year made the free programme and even if our skater this year finished in a world elite position. This is the "SLIGHTLY" difference between the two situations.
Take France's women situation... A bad day for your skaters and suddenly you lose your spots. But that's the sport, because they both underperformed, it's not that they did well and gain nothing anyway. Ironically, it seems easier to lose a spot instead of earning one more.

And let's don't start a discussion about how easy/hard is to get the minimum since there are competitions made on purpose, where judges are really generous... You can skate bad all season and hit just one competition and you can go to Worlds if you're from a "marginal" Federation. You can skate decent all the season and don't go to Worlds because your country still has only a limited number of spots, even if your Fed is investing in the discipline and your skaters do a decent/good previous world championship.

People are all complaining about the more obvious, blatant injustice (USA men situation) but it's not the only one. And a system which has more than one flaw need to be revised. Unfortunately it won't be the case.

p.s. I don't want to sound harsh about Argentina or even less about Denis Margalik (who is still so young and I wish him all the best for the future!). I only needed one as an example but it could have been anyone :giveup:

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I meant that as he got the minimum tes he qualified. What term or verb would you use to describe that? As I am not native English speaker I chose the word to qualify to described the matter.

alebi said:

Spain Fed hasn't been so wise. They had 3 spots for this Worlds and they decided to bring Raya, who needed a miracle to finish around 12th place. The illogical thing is that if they had brought only Fernandez they could secure 3 spots for next Worlds but since they also brought Raya they gained only 2 spots, with the same result (and very predictable result. I mean Fernandez was 99% sure to finish in a top2).
!

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I think it's fine for Spain to have done this this year - after all, sending 1 entry this year and 3 next year, versus sending 2 entries this year and 2 entries next year amounts to the same thing. Really, if they want to get 3 spots they should always send just Fernandez but that negates the value of getting 3 spots.

Maybe next season the Spanish fed should gauge how Fernandez/Raya/Montoya are doing leading up to Worlds to determine if they just send Fernandez to try to get 3 Olympic spots. But every other year it makes sense to send maximum skaters available to give lesser skaters opportunities, and incentivize skaters who are far from the top.

It is so painful to see that many countries DESERVE 3 spots but were not able to achieve them. China deserves 3 spots for the pairs, USA deserves 3 spots for the men, Italy and Russia deserve 3 teams in ice dance....we need some revisions to these rules. The 13 rule, while understandable because you want your skaters to mathematically be better than at least half the competition in the free, is just becoming more and more difficult to achieve due to the increasing competitive climate of the sport and more countries beginning to develop their skating federations (South Korea, Spain, Kazakhstan, etc).
I was thinking more along the lines of, if you get one skater into the top 12, that's one spot (unless the skater wins, then that's TWO spots, NOT three). If you get two skaters into the top 12, that's two spots...and three skaters in the top 12...three spots. Much more simple, and easier for fans to understand. The 13 rule needs to go away NOW! :agree:

actually, the system you are suggesting would REMOVE spots for most countries, especially the mid-range countries that have 2 spots... China wouldn't get 3 spots in pair that way.... how would Italy get a 3rd spot in dance? they had 2 teams enrolled, you do not propose any way to upgrade... only possible way is going down...

... Canada, China and Kazhakstan would lose their second spots in ladies... Your proposed solution would favour countries that normally get 3 spots, not give a shot for weaker federations to gain a second spot, and most often, prevent a country from having two spots if they are in the middle of the pack... For instance, in Men, Canada will have 2 spots next year.... your system : 1 spot.... Or Pairs for USA would lose to 1 spot only.

Unless I have misread you or you haven't quite explained your idea properly, your solution is worse than the current system.

I don't feel sorry for US Men... they did very well indeed but the top man is 6... even if the other ones did very well, the chance for podium is still far, and thus why send 3 men who will do spots 6-10 and prevent other countries from a second skater ???? (as of course, the most skaters a strong but not TOP country has in an event, prevents middle strength countries to secure two spots... OR for instance, a country like Canada which deserves 2 spots as Chan is a medal contender, and landed in 5th, and yes, Nam did badly this year, but usually the second man in Canada can aim for a top ten (Reynolds has a 5th in 2014 or was it 2013 ?, Nam too in 2015)

Chinese pairs : why 3 teams ? yes they have one team as a medal contender but the other two did average.. outside top ten.

Dance for Russian a #9 and a # 11... not necessarily deserving a third team with those rankings (do not mention that B/S couldn't participate because that's exceptional.... usually a country ranking 9 and 11 in a discipline would be considered an average strength country deserving two spots....

the only thing that could be done to help some countries getting more spots would be to perhaps increase the 13 to maybe 14 or 15... but then, it would simply mean more skaters for the strong but not stellar countries, removing spots for weaker federations or federations that only have ONE great skater.... I think the system works pretty well MOST years and that's what it is supposed to be as there are always exceptions that make us think it doesn't work or needs tweaking...

sorry for this long post... i am rambling HAHA i hope i am clear enough... too tired here to read it again .

apons575 said:

It is so painful to see that many countries DESERVE 3 spots but were not able to achieve them. China deserves 3 spots for the pairs, USA deserves 3 spots for the men, Italy and Russia deserve 3 teams in ice dance....we need some revisions to these rules. The 13 rule, while understandable because you want your skaters to mathematically be better than at least half the competition in the free, is just becoming more and more difficult to achieve due to the increasing competitive climate of the sport and more countries beginning to develop their skating federations (South Korea, Spain, Kazakhstan, etc).
I was thinking more along the lines of, if you get one skater into the top 12, that's one spot (unless the skater wins, then that's TWO spots, NOT three). If you get two skaters into the top 12, that's two spots...and three skaters in the top 12...three spots. Much more simple, and easier for fans to understand. The 13 rule needs to go away NOW! :agree:

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4everchan said:

I don't feel sorry for US Men... they did very well indeed but the top man is 6... even if the other ones did very well, the chance for podium is still far, and thus why send 3 men who will do spots 6-10 and prevent other countries from a second skater ????

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Somehow I doubt this was your attitude when the Japanese men were 2, 12, and 16 last year and lost their third spot. At least all three of the US men finished in the top 10!

karne said:

Somehow I doubt this was your attitude when the Japanese men were 2, 12, and 16 last year and lost their third spot. At least all three of the US men finished in the top 10!

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I'm sure he'd feel otherwise if there were 3 Canadians in the top 10.

i felt sorry for the japanese skaters as two of them had a meltdown... not about the loss of the third spot. I don't feel sorry for US men as they skated well...

karne said:

Somehow I doubt this was your attitude when the Japanese men were 2, 12, and 16 last year and lost their third spot. At least all three of the US men finished in the top 10!

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gravy said:

I'm sure he'd feel otherwise if there were 3 Canadians in the top 10.

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that has happened in pairs before i think they were 7-8-9 or 8-9-10.... and we only got two spots tough but if they had placed higher they would get 3....

thank you both for assigning ill-feelings to someone just sharing his opinion about a proposed amendment to the rules which would risk to REMOVE spots instead of giving some more... the level of negativity has reached new heights.

4everchan said:

i felt sorry for the japanese skaters as two of them had a meltdown... not about the loss of the third spot. I don't feel sorry for US men as they skated well...



that has happened in pairs before i think they were 7-8-9 or 8-9-10.... and we only got two spots tough but if they had placed higher they would get 3....

thank you both for assigning ill-feelings to someone just sharing his opinion about a proposed amendment to the rules which would risk to REMOVE spots instead of giving some more... the level of negativity has reached new heights.

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I don't think there are ill-feelings, but you COULD be a little more respectful in your posts. As you said, I was just sharing my opinion, and so are you. That's perfectly fine, but don't expect people to not respond (or call you out on some of your biased comments). I understand what you are saying, and you are correct, lower countries would get less spots. So you have made a good point, but don't call out negativity when A LOT of your posts are like that...I think we know Canada has a special place in your heart!

apons575 said:

I don't think there are ill-feelings, but you COULD be a little more respectful in your posts. As you said, I was just sharing my opinion, and so are you. That's perfectly fine, but don't expect people to not respond (or call you out on some of your biased comments). I understand what you are saying, and you are correct, lower countries would get less spots. So you have made a good point, but don't call out negativity when A LOT of your posts are like that...I think we know Canada has a special place in your heart!

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where have I been disrespectful to your post ? I have simply pointed out that your solution wasn't bringing a better result than the actual system. I am Canadian, yes... that doesn't mean that I am biased. I am a figure skating fan, who can appreciate good skating without the need for a specific citizenship. I have simply used Canada as an example because it matched the current situation... but I could have used China for men just as well (and I did for ladies)... and many other countries. It wasn't because of any bias . If I were biased I'd cry that Canada needs 3 spots in ladies and men too... or 5 spots in pairs. come on.


WOW!