2016 US Intl FS Classic Mens SP
- Thread starter dorispulaski
- Start date
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2014
I agree, but it's not happening for some reason. The rule might as well not exist for the difference it makes.
No-one force men to do as solo jump a quad if they can't do it out of (difficult) step/tr. They can do quad as combo and put as solo jump a triple, ie.
The rule is perfect as it it, the problem is on its enforcement (I hope it's not because judges can't recognize what a step or a difficult step is). I'd wish, tho, it was technical panel to call the step or not. A bit like UR: if tech panel doesn't call the step, you just apply an automatic -3 from single judge GOE.
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2010
Steps before a solo jump is a fine rule for the SP as a comparative technical requirement. Skaters used to only include a quad in the SP when they could do it as a combo because steps before a quad was too difficult but for an extremely few. A skater or two started doing it without the steps and was not called and others followed suit. These days, such rule violations are almost never called. That should not be how SP are compared and scored.
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2015
https://youtu.be/eKAaHWjVgvM?t=1m14s
https://youtu.be/k1dq9Dc20mk?t=1m7s
I give you 2 examples here but you can watch any of his programs.
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
Thank you! I should have known just to look for Hanyu as he's such a phenomenal jumper (and skater). Much appreciated.
I would think that once Jason actually lands the jump consistently he will add steps - the whole idea is for him to up his TES so why would he risk being dinged? I can see them keeping it easy for now though.
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
Thank you, Marin!
I hope so too. I am all in for difficult and diffrent quads, but even if it would be quad axel judges should do their job if this doesn't have steps : )
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2014
Here are the steps what Yuzuru did before and after his jumps in his SP Chopin (2 quads)
Spread eagle- three turn - Mohawk -4Sal- Spread eagle
Choctaw – Mohawk –Chasse- three turn 4T3T
Bauer-three turn—chasse-counter-3A-change of edge-counter
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So looking at this real quick:
http://static.isu.org/media/1003/2000-sptc-sov-and-goe-2016-2017_revised-july-14.pdf
There is a few mentions of GOE for " steps/movements" into the single jump in the SP:
* It actually counts as an extra bullet toward +GOE if the steps are difficult (pg. 12)
* There is -3 GOE if there are NO preceding steps, as most know
* There is also -1 to -2 GOE if "Break between required steps/movements &jump (and/or ) only 1step/movement preceding jump"
So there's actually some distinctions made. You get docked -3 if you do nothing. Like you just simply do a bunch of cross overs and than just go into a straight line. The deduction is lower if there is SOME sort of movement/steps but it's not right into the jump and/or there's only one such movement. And then on the other end, you could actually get a +GOE boost if the steps/movements you do are deemed difficult in the eyes of the judges.
So the mohawk into the three-turn that Jason does count as a one or two "movements" The judges would still dock him -1 or -2 if it's only ONE movement (if the three-turn, I assume is considered part of the jump??). And since Mura does a similar scenario, maybe he was docked -1 or -2 based on the 3rd provision.
And it sounds like Hanyu would actually get a boost in +GOE for having DIFFICULT Steps (and a whole lot of them).
You might also have a scenario where you take -3 for not having preceding steps but if the jump meets other +GOE bullets the overall GOE my end up being less?
It seemed like Jason attempted to do more steps (not difficult, but they seem to be there) in this botch attempted from 2015 4CC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkJzndiT93A
http://static.isu.org/media/1003/2000-sptc-sov-and-goe-2016-2017_revised-july-14.pdf
There is a few mentions of GOE for " steps/movements" into the single jump in the SP:
* It actually counts as an extra bullet toward +GOE if the steps are difficult (pg. 12)
* There is -3 GOE if there are NO preceding steps, as most know
* There is also -1 to -2 GOE if "Break between required steps/movements &jump (and/or ) only 1step/movement preceding jump"
So there's actually some distinctions made. You get docked -3 if you do nothing. Like you just simply do a bunch of cross overs and than just go into a straight line. The deduction is lower if there is SOME sort of movement/steps but it's not right into the jump and/or there's only one such movement. And then on the other end, you could actually get a +GOE boost if the steps/movements you do are deemed difficult in the eyes of the judges.
So the mohawk into the three-turn that Jason does count as a one or two "movements" The judges would still dock him -1 or -2 if it's only ONE movement (if the three-turn, I assume is considered part of the jump??). And since Mura does a similar scenario, maybe he was docked -1 or -2 based on the 3rd provision.
And it sounds like Hanyu would actually get a boost in +GOE for having DIFFICULT Steps (and a whole lot of them).
You might also have a scenario where you take -3 for not having preceding steps but if the jump meets other +GOE bullets the overall GOE my end up being less?
It seemed like Jason attempted to do more steps (not difficult, but they seem to be there) in this botch attempted from 2015 4CC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkJzndiT93A
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Yes. A jump that isn't "immediately preceded by connecting steps and/or other comparable Free Skating movements" (and as such it doesn't fullify sp requirements), could strike enough "bullets" to earn on his own +1/+2 (I'd say +3 is highly unlikely since without steps/comparable movements I doubt you can get credit for "creative/difficult entry" or "difficult steps" bullets) and from there judge should take away 3 points. In any case, at best a solo jump who doesn't fulfill the requirements should in best case scenario earn -1 GOE (if it was otherwise a +2).
In my humble opinion, none of the quads done in senior B challengers up to now as solo jump can be said to fulfill connecting steps/comparable movements requirement.
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Except in the 1999 and 2000 seasons, when quads were first allowed in the short program but only as the solo jump. A few skaters started attempting solo quads in the short in 1998-99 (IIRC, the first to succeed was Min Zhang of China at 1999 Four Continents), but the difficulty/intricacy/quantity of steps before quad was much much lower, often practically nonexistent, compared to what the same guys had been doing before solo lutzes or flips a few months or a year earlier. Even Yagudin and Plushenko.
Finally for the 2001 season (again, IIRC) the ISU decided to allow the option of a quad in the SP combination -- either/or, still only one quad per short program. So then most guys who wanted to do quads in the SP put them in the combo.
Until it became legal to do two different quads, one for the combo and one as the solo jump. Then the steps/movements before the solo jump became an issue again.
His PCS make no sense, rspecially compared to Adam's.
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