2016 Rostelecom Cup Free Dance | Page 20 | Golden Skate

2016 Rostelecom Cup Free Dance

Astrid56

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 24, 2014
VIETgrl, you are correct about the GPs. :agree:
USFS had no control over C/B's assignments to Skate Canada and Russia.

Yes, USFS has control over who are sent to competitions! They are the ones deciding who will compete taking into account the seeding and, usually, winners of their national events are chosen to skate first in the home country (C/B - 2015 Natl champion competed in SA last year so did 2014 Natl Champion D/W. This year's Natl Champion _the Shibs competed in SA. It is a tradition). I believe, the Natl Silver medalists usually go to Skate Canada first _Shibs did it in 2015, and C/B the year previous - 2014.

Skaters are entered in the individual events either by being seeded or by invitation. The seeding of top skaters at Grand Prix events basically takes into account their placement from the previous World Championships, as well as their ISU international ranking. Skaters who are not seeded can be invited by the hosting country and each country can invite up to three of their own skaters for each discipline. This is to give a balanced field throughout the series, as well as allowing the hosting country a chance to showcase their top competitors.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISU_Grand_Prix_of_Figure_Skating

And I highly doubt that USFS forced C/B to compete at both Nebelhorn and Nepela
I think it is far more likely that C/B themselves wanted the extra competition experience of a two-fer -- knowing that getting from Oberstdorf to Bratislava would be relatively painless. (IIRC, they traveled by car??) And knowing that the two comps are in the same time zone (AFAIK).
I suppose the skaters have a choice - to compete or not. I think C/B competed to get a feel of their programs, competition-wise. And to get their jitters out ... Madi spoke about this in a recent interview.
 
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VIETgrlTerifa

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
It says the USFS did not decide that C/B had to compete at Skate Canada and Rostelecom Cup back-to-back. They only had control over who to invite at Skate America and decided on the Shibs probably because they were national champions just as Chock/Bates were invited at Skate America when they were national champions. The only time both teams competed at Skate America was when neither of them were national champions. Being a seeded team, C/B were guaranteed two GP spots, and the host country picks who they want to compete at their GP events but I know of certain rules about not putting skaters in certain rankings together if it can be helped but I don't know the specifics. The USFS cannot assign their skaters to specific GP events other than Skate America as it is the host federation and can invite up to three of their own skaters for each discipline. The other host federations decide which one of the seeded skaters they want at their events. They probably have a certain order and the sixth one has the last pickings for their seeded teams after they already decided which of their own country's skaters they want to invite for their GP event. It just so happened to work out that C/B received two back-to-back assignments this season.
 
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VIETgrlTerifa

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Yes, USFS has control over who are sent to competitions! They are the ones deciding who will compete taking into account the seeding and, usually, winners of their national events are chosen to skate first in the home country (C/B - 2015 Natl champion competed in SA last year so did 2014 Natl Champion D/W. This year's Natl Champion _the Shibs competed in SA. It is a tradition). I believe, the Natl Silver medalists usually go to Skate Canada first _Shibs did it in 2015, and C/B the year previous - 2014.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISU_Grand_Prix_of_Figure_Skating

I suppose the skaters have a choice - to compete or not. I think C/B competed to get a feel of their programs, competition-wise. And to get their jitters out ... Madi spoke about this in a recent interview.


Since you edited your post a bit after my initial response, I'm going to copy and paste what I've read from the poster kwanfan1818 from Figure Skating Universe:

Each host Fed gets three host picks for each discipline. They can choose any three from their country they want. While most of the time, they stick to no more than one from each Worlds group [Worlds placements 1-3; 4-6; etc], on occasion, they pick two, and then another host picks two from a different seed group. Japan has done this several times. I don't remember if they ever took two of the top three, though.

Sometimes hosts don't use them all and return spots to the pool in initial selection. Japan, for example, has given up Pairs and Dance spots, and Gailhaguet was suspected of tossing back host spots to buy votes in the recent election. The hosts can designate at least one TBD, and sometimes they designate two, which have to be named or given back by the ernd of the summer.

The ISU doesn't assign any spots. They set the selection rules and determine who is eligible and who is guaranteed spots. After the hosts choose host spots, the hosts draw for selection order, one draw per discipline, and they draw from Worlds 1-3, 4-6, and for singles, 7-9 and 10-12, and for Pairs and Dance, 7-10, and through the groups defined -- those guaranteedone, comeback skaters, split couples, etc. If the host already has a host pick from any of the groups, they skip that round. If a host pick is guaranteed two, they are chosen for the second when their Worlds group comes up.

So in essence, the USFS may have indirectly caused C/B to do both Skate Canada and Rostelecom Cup, but they did not do that directly. All they did was not choose them for Skate America as I'm sure they wanted to better ensure that both the Shibs and C/B had a great chance of qualifying for the GPF by not having them directly compete against one another. Plus, since the Shibs and C/B were in the same Worlds group maybe they could not have. Notice how no ice dance team ranked 1-3 have any GP events against one another? Same with teams ranked 4-6. Etc. I'm sure it was not an ideal situation for USFS to have their ice dance team that is also the reigning world bronze medalist to have to do both Skate Canada and Rostelecom Cup, but that's how it worked. Other than choosing who they wanted for Skate America, everything else simply worked out the way it did.

Also, silver medalists doing Skate Canada isn't really a tradition and is actually quite recent. It just happened the past two seasons. Chock/Bates were national silver medalists in 2013 and 2014, and 2016 and did Skate Canada for the first time as the reigning national silver medalist the season following their silver in 2016. The Shibutanis were silver medalists in 2011, 2012, and 2015 and did Skate Canada for the first time in their entire career the season following their silver in 2015.
 
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ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Yes, USFS have control over who they send to competitions! They are the ones deciding who will compete ...

... Skaters who are not seeded can be invited by the hosting country and each country can invite up to three of their own skaters for each discipline. This is to give a balanced field throughout the series, as well as allowing the hosting country a chance to showcase their top competitors.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISU_Grand_Prix_of_Figure_Skating

You are mis-reading the first sentence that I have re-quoted from your quoting of Wikipedia.
The sentence is only about HOST COUNTRIES.
(The Wikipedia writer could have made things extra-super-duper-clear by saying, "Skaters who are not seeded can be invited by the hosting country and each host country can invite up to three of their own skaters for each discipline.")

Reiterating what VIETgrl has said:

USFS is the host country only for Skate America.
Thus USFS controls assignments only to Skate America.
And USFS controls Skate America assignments for skaters from all countries.
Other federations do not have the power to assign their skaters to Skate America.

As the hosting country for Skate Canada International, the federation Skate Canada controls assignments (of skaters from all countries) to Skate Canada International.
As the hosting country for Rostelecom Cup, the Russian federation controls assignments (of skaters from all countries) to Rostelecom.​


ETA:
Thanks to VIETgrl and Mrs. P for going into the details about the top three seeds, etc. Although the parameters changed for C/B as the third seed, I would emphasize to Astrid that USFS did not control those parameters -- and thus cannot be held responsible for C/B going to both SCI and Rostelecom.​
 
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Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Chock and Bates were likely affected by a combination of host feds and top seeding preferences.

Here's what likely happened:

Host picks:
USFS: Picks Shibs
TdF: Picks Papadakis/Cizeron.

Papadakis/Cizeron has 1st pick at remaining competitions, they likely picked TdF and NHK
NHK: Picks P/C

This leaves the Shibutanis with second choice -- Skate Canada, Rostelecom Cup and Cup of China. They probably would have loved to do NHK again, but P/C picked it first. They obviously didn't want to do a back-to-back event, so no Skate Canada. So that leaves Rostelecom Cup and Cup of China. They choose Cup of China.

VietgrlTerifa is correct you cannot have 1-3 at worlds at the same event.

Chock and Bates are left with the reminder, the back-to-back Skate Canada and Rostelecom Cup.


FWIW: Jason Brown also opted to do back-to-back competitions because he wanted to get the feel of having to do two high caliber competitions within a short period of time, since that would occur with the Olympics -- with the Team Event and Men. Maybe Chock and Bates maybe wanted the same experience.

The Shibutanis in 2014--also did back-to-back competitions -- They did Cup of China (Nov. 7-9) and then Ice Challenge (Nov. 11-16).
 

Astrid56

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 24, 2014
Chock and Bates were likely affected by a combination of host feds and top seeding preferences.

Here's what likely happened:

Host picks:
USFS: Picks Shibs
TdF: Picks Papadakis/Cizeron.

Papadakis/Cizeron has 1st pick at remaining competitions, they likely picked TdF and NHK
NHK: Picks P/C

This leaves the Shibutanis with second choice -- Skate Canada, Rostelecom Cup and Cup of China. They probably would have loved to do NHK again, but P/C picked it first. They obviously didn't want to do a back-to-back event, so no Skate Canada. So that leaves Rostelecom Cup and Cup of China. They choose Cup of China.

VietgrlTerifa is correct you cannot have 1-3 at worlds at the same event.

Chock and Bates are left with the reminder, the back-to-back Skate Canada and Rostelecom Cup.


FWIW: Jason Brown also opted to do back-to-back competitions because he wanted to get the feel of having to do two high caliber competitions within a short period of time, since that would occur with the Olympics -- with the Team Event and Men. Maybe Chock and Bates maybe wanted the same experience.

The Shibutanis in 2014--also did back-to-back competitions -- They did Cup of China (Nov. 7-9) and then Ice Challenge (Nov. 11-16).
Agree, USFS choosing the Shibs and H/D got Chock and Bates locked to do the Skate Canada & Rostelecom. They couldn't have both _ the 2 & 3 so they_ the USFS_ decided to let C/B have Skate Canada & Rostelecom. Trophée and NHK has the no #1 but USFS could have sent them to Cup of China and the Shibs to Rostelecom. Oh well. I think it is part of the USFS strategy to ensure, I think, a better outcome.
 

VIETgrlTerifa

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Agree, USFS choosing the Shibs and H/D got Chock and Bates locked to do the Skate Canada & Rostelecom. They couldn't have both _ the 2 & 3 so they_ the USFS_ decided to let C/B have Skate Canada & Rostelecom. Trophée and NHK has the no #1 but USFS could have sent them to Cup of China and the Shibs to Rostelecom. Oh well. I think it is part of the USFS strategy to ensure, I think, a better outcome.

Again, the USFS could not have sent them to Cup of China and the Shibs to Rostelecom Cup. The two countries with teams in the top three were France and the U.S. The U.S. chose to take the Shibs. France chose Papadakis/Cizeron. That left Canada, Russia, China, and Japan to pick who they wanted based on World groupings and two of them ended up having C/B based on picking them or simply ended up with them after they were through with their own host choices and which slots were available and allowed with the World grouping rules. Canada either chose C/B or simply ended up with them, but they were a very possible choice since none their teams (host picks) placed in the top 3. Japan usually picks the Shibutanis, but for whatever reason this season chose Papadakis/Cizeron leaving C/B and Shibs out. Or they ended up not choosing and let the selection fall where it may. China chose/ended up with the Shibutanis, leaving C/B out. So that left Russia. Or maybe out of all the countries, China got to pick first and chose the Shibs because they were a big hit in Taiwan, meaning Japan had to choose between P/C and C/B and chose P/C. Or maybe Russia got to pick first and really wanted C/B, leaving P/C and the Shibs out. Who knows which countries got to pick first, but the one thing that is true is that the USFS did not send C/B to Skate Canada and Rostelecom Cup nor could they possibly do it even if they wanted to despite knowing those events were back-to-back because it had the intention of giving the Shibs a better chance of doing well at the expense of Chock/Bates as what I think is what you're implying.

Now skaters can put requests as to which GP events they'd like to do, and I think tradition usually honors the World Champions receiving their first choice, but that's not guaranteed, and we've seen skaters not get the GPs they've requested because it couldn't work out the way thanks to the host federations having the final say over who they want at their own respective Grand Prix events, which affects all the other choices due to the World group rules and what-not.
 
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dcnative

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 20, 2011
Yeah, I bet a lot of teams are understandably seriously confused. That would make me so frustrated, and it might as well be 6.0 all over again.

As for W/P's twizzles, only one judge penalized them. The American judge gave them a "- 1" while the others gave them all "1"s except for two who gave them a "2". I think it's ridiculous how the American judge gave both W/P and C/B the same GOE for their twizzles in the FD though I don't think W/P deserved a "2" either.

Thanks!!
 

Ice Dance

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
-1 and -2 or -3, I think.

I'm all for negatives on all obvious wobbles, feet down, blown sets, etc. I think it needs to be mandated into the rules so we do not have the subjective decision of subtracting based on how good the twizzles supposedly would be clean. This is probably what leads to the what-the-heck reactions from all of us. Combined with the judges' tendencies to give +2's and +3's to all clean elements for all World class teams, when they should really hold off on that more and scrutinize the actual quality of the team's specific elements.

(In my system, V&M should have had negatives at SC. I don't care if they are +2 or +3 level twizzles normally. A foot down on a first set is serious. The twizzles weren't performed at a plus level at SC). C&B at least did get the negatives here and deserved them.

The problem W&P have on the twizzles is that their execution really isn't a +2 or +3 to start off with. They have received those, but it's a gift. Their twizzles are some of the weakest in the field generally. They are one of my favorite teams and they have a LOT of first-class elements, but their twizzles don't stack up to many mid-level teams. Looking at this field, for example, most of the other teams have better clean twizzles--better ice coverage & security. (I think Guignard & Fabbri have the best twizzles in the entire Rostelecom field). TBH, I wouldn't give W&P above a plus one on a good day. A zero for a clean set would still be fair. Negative one for the mistake is right. But go ahead and give C&B the negative two or negative three. They have better twizzles on a good day, but not the best either and the mistake was a huge one.

I do hope to see the +5 and -5 rule change help with this, but unless there is some kind of clear designation that all obviously flawed twizzles are worth negatives, I'm afraid we are going to get more pluses for non-plus worthy execution.
 
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Mango

Royal Chinet 👑🍽️
Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 5, 2016
These are the ISU documents on awarding GOEs for required ice dance technical elements.

ISU Communication 2003
pp. 25-26
ISU Communication 1860
pp. 24-25

Can we use the criteria mentioned here to form our analyses? I don't quite understand what is being gifted and what is being earned when it comes to GOEs.
 

humbaba

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 12, 2004
B/S FD is not really my cup of tea but I do like their SD & do think they deserved to win. I like their open style of skating.
I don't see the hate for B/S winning just because it's in their home country. The Shibs got inflated marks at Skate America just like C/B did for the past two years before that. It's only ever seen as a bad thing when it happens in "Big Bad Russia".

Oh, there have been plenty of complaints about home cooking in countries other than Russia. I think it would be more accurate to say that many fans are a bit hypocritical when it comes to home ice judging bias. We're outraged when it happens to our faves or our compatriots; but willing to rationalize it, or at least look the other way, when home cooking happens in our own country or benefits skaters we like.
 
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