2016 NHK Trophy Men FS | Page 41 | Golden Skate

2016 NHK Trophy Men FS

treeloving

Medalist
Joined
Feb 17, 2010

I do not know why you cite this but it is actually why I said he is both overedscore and underscored, I do agree that Canadian judge gave him a suspicious score in relation to some pcs category of Brown and Chen but at the same time she is also strict with everybody.

Yuzu himself get +3 and +2 for that quad loop......

Even I am a fan myself sometime I hope some of his fan learn from his attitude instead of screaming controversy in every little thing and act like he is a helpless victim who the world conspired against ( including discrediting his competitor and who ever that don't worship his skate in the same way at every chance).
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
I do not know why you cite this but it is actually why I said he is both overedscore and underscored, I do agree that Canadian judge gave him a suspicious score in relation to some pcs category of Brown and Chen but at the same time she is also strict with everybody.

Yuzu himself get +3 and +2 for that quad loop......

Even I am a fan myself sometime I hope some of his fan learn from his attitude instead of screaming controversy in every little thing and act like he is a helpless victim who the world conspired against ( including discrediting his competitor and who ever that don't worship his skate in the same way at every chance).
Quoting Camillo because you seem to attack Yuzuru's score and defend scores for Javi. Let me tell you, this is the actual number of how their PCS are judges until now.

Yeah, I agree with you.
Yuzu had 4 of 10s for flawed skates during his entire career
Patrick had 4 of 10s (including Sochi)
Javi had 38 of 10s

But some posters at GS again and again talk about Hanyuflation and too generous scoring :laugh:

I would love to see how you defend how Javi got 38 of 10s in PCS for his flawed performances until now. Compared to Javi, Patrick and Yuzuru seem underscored.

Edit, for reference http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...ng-2016-2017&p=1564945&viewfull=1#post1564945
 
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gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Is the Fed really "forcing" Mikhail to do these things? I've never heard of them forcing other skaters to attempt layouts more difficult than they could handle. Nobody forces Petrov to try even one quad, and they are both in the national team. :confused: What proof do we have of this, that doesn't come from FSO or gmyers? :slink:

Why would anyone force Petrov to do anything. He wasn't 4th at worlds. It just seems so out of character the way his previous season went that now he's trying to do quad toe, salchow and lutz. You know the federation forced him to get rid of his new SP. So they are involved in all aspects of his skating now because he placed 4th. Unless I am missing an interview where he said he wanted to do quad toe, salchow and lutz this season in his free skate.

Look, I understand you're worried but it's a risky sport. He is pretty aware of that. If he was not capable of doing quads- then he would have stopped traning them. Give him a chance, have a bit more faith in him. If he wants to be a leader in Russian Men's field- he has to do something. It all depends on him and not on a "pushing" Federation.

I am just waiting now to see what he does at Russian nationals. I hope it's something he can handle.
 
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vorravorra

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 9, 2016
Why would anyone force Petrov to do anything. He wasn't 4th at worlds. It just seems so out of character the way his previous season went that now he's trying to do quad toe, salchow and lutz. You know the federation forced him to get rid of his new SP. So they are involved in all aspects of his skating now because he placed 4th. Unless I am missing an interview where he said he wanted to do quad toe, salchow and lutz this season in his free skate.

I am just waiting now to see what he does at Russian nationals. I hope it's something he can handle.
Mikhail has never planned to jump both 4S and 4Lz in his free skate this season and has never tried to do so. It's either/or + 4T, two quads in total. Nor does the Fed expect both from him, they would have been perfectly happy with 4S (and would of course be happy with 4Lz should he decide to switch to it instead). It looks like they were surprised by his decision to do 4Lz as much as anyone else. For the Russian Nationals he can drop the second quad altogether if he wants to, it's not like he needs it for a place on the podium, what he needs is a reasonably clean skate.
 
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Eislauf

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 26, 2012
I think Nathan Chen is the only US mens skater with international potential, i.e. at Worlds, the GPF and Olympics, who can seriously compete alongside Hanyu, Chan, Javi and Jin. Quads, charisma, youth, style, energy - he just needs to buff off the rough edges.

Sadly, I wonder if Jason's competitive window has closed, given the delays (and unfortunate injuries) he's experienced in trying to master and consistently land the quad toe. Can he master three additional quads in the next year, including in combo with triples??

I sorta wish he'd train with Orser or Rafa.
 
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vorravorra

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 9, 2016
Mikhail has never planned to jump both 4S and 4Lz in his free skate this season and has never tried to do so. It's either/or + 4T, two quads in total. Nor does the Fed expect both from him, they would have been perfectly happy with 4S (and would of course be happy with 4Lz should he decide to switch to it instead). It looks like they were surprised by his decision to do 4Lz as much as anyone else. For the Russian Nationals he can drop the second quad altogether if he wants to, it's not like he needs it for a place on the podium, what he needs is a reasonably clean skate.
Just to clarify the situation: Mikhail has been training 4S for years and it's now at the point where it's fine in practices but something stops him when he attempts it in competitions (I don't know why they don't at least try a 4S-4T layout instead of a 4T-4S layout, it seems like the first quad might be easier for Mikhail to jump). Under the circumstances it's not unreasonable to put it aside for the moment and try something else. 4Lz he has been trying since at least last season, but there hasn't been clear information on just how far it has progressed. Him attempting it in a competition was certainly unexpected, but he had little to lose and considering the overwhelmingly positive reaction it got from various quarters it wasn't the worst of ideas. I am not sure whether he should keep putting it into his FS, I suppose it would need more than one showing to know for certain. He can always continue doing in at minor competitions for now if he wants to. And maybe it will somehow help him overcome the mental roadblock he has with regard to 4S.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
I think Nathan Chen is the only US mens skater with international potential, i.e. at Worlds, the GPF and Olympics, who can seriously compete alongside Hanyu, Chan, Javi and Jin. Quads, charisma, youth, style, energy - he just needs to buff off the rough edges.

Sadly, I wonder if Jason's competitive window has closed, given the delays (and unfortunate injuries) he's experienced in trying to master and consistently land the quad toe. Can he master three additional quads in the next year, including in combo with triples??

I sorta wish he'd train with Orser or Rafa.

I think it's way too premature to write Jason's career off based on this one bad result. He's had a pretty solid season up until this competition and even with all the quads by Nathan at NHK --Jason still has the highest season's best score in the FS/Overall and that was with a underrotated quad toe.

I don't think he needs to master four quads to get big scores. Also as I noted in the U.S. Men's thread -- Jason's delay in getting technical content is not new. This has been the story of his entire career.
 

garf

Spectator
Joined
Nov 22, 2014
Can someone point me to a discussion, why Hanyu has learned to jump 4loop and not lutz or flip, which have better base value? I have not found an explanation for that. As I understand it, loop may be even more difficult, but the points do not match. Thanks
 

eta

Medalist
Joined
Oct 23, 2015
Can someone point me to a discussion, why Hanyu has learned to jump 4loop and not lutz or flip, which have better base value? I have not found an explanation for that. As I understand it, loop may be even more difficult, but the points do not match. Thanks

Hanyu is actually practicing 4Lz. He doesn't like the flip so no 4F, his 3F used to have unclear/wrong edge though it's been fixed. Plus, he likes edge jumps more than toe jumps.
 

garf

Spectator
Joined
Nov 22, 2014
Hanyu is actually practicing 4Lz. He doesn't like the flip so no 4F, his 3F used to have unclear/wrong edge though it's been fixed. Plus, he likes edge jumps more than toe jumps.

thanks, it was unclear to me why invest time in loop when all around you start to jump 4F and 4Lz. But still, love his program :luv17:
 

riminin

Rinkside
Joined
May 27, 2014
Can someone point me to a discussion, why Hanyu has learned to jump 4loop and not lutz or flip, which have better base value? I have not found an explanation for that. As I understand it, loop may be even more difficult, but the points do not match. Thanks

Loop with the right foot take-off has been the safest jump for him to do due to the lisfranc ligament injury on his left foot which kept him off ice for months after Worlds. Now take-off foot is the left one for both Lz and F, but with Lz your weight is obviously more on your heel so the impact on that particular ligament is smaller. That's why he's concentrating more on Lz now.
 

Tutto

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Is the Fed really "forcing" Mikhail to do these things? I've never heard of them forcing other skaters to attempt layouts more difficult than they could handle. Nobody forces Petrov to try even one quad, and they are both in the national team. :confused: What proof do we have of this, that doesn't come from FSO or gmyers? :slink:

There are lots of things we never get to hear of but which do exist nevertheless. As in any professional field, there are lots of jealousies, intrigues and undercurrents in figure skating. If you followed Gachinsky career or Kovtun's you know all there is to know how to break a skater...

Kolyada
4Lz attempt!!!! and fall, 4T fall, nice 3A, little tight on 3T in a 3Lz3T combo. I like his 3Lz, which is a good foundation for his 4Lz. Cute character playing during the STSQ with speed and clean edge work (lv4,+1.0 GOE). Little mime and small spread eagle after solid Sspin. 1A pop!!! He was not super expressive, but after this point no face what so ever. Being a serious young man and disappointed with the technical mistakes, he showed the disappointment in the program and at the KnC. The supportive Japanese crowd could not lighten up his mood. Hope he does not take it TOO seriously. He has one of the best clean edge work in t the field. His program, with quirkiness, felt like a long choreo sequence entire time, which is VERY difficult to do.

Thank you for saying this not many people appreciate how difficult is this program! BESP people were too very complimentary especially Catherine whose comments on choreo I find interesting. But unless you can read Russian you have no idea how much criticism Kolyada's programs receive in his home land ranging from 'juniorish' to 'a playing a village idiot' ...and so on :shrug:
 
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da96103

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
thanks, it was unclear to me why invest time in loop when all around you start to jump 4F and 4Lz. But still, love his program :luv17:

Another reason why the 4Lo was practiced and perfected and debuted earlier than 4Lz is the 4Lo training stabilizes his 4S last season. Two seasons ago Yuzu's 4S had poor success rate.

So the four perfect Chopin and Seimei at NHK and GPF were due to the 4Lo training.
 
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da96103

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
thanks, it was unclear to me why invest time in loop when all around you start to jump 4F and 4Lz. But still, love his program :luv17:

Also to get into history books to be the first to get the ratified 4Lo since last season 4Lz and 4F have been claimed.
 

Yatagarasu

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 29, 2015
Also to get into history books to be the first to get the ratified 4Lo since last season 4Lz and 4F have been claimed.

No, it's because of the injury as riminin said above. It's something Hanyu himself has said:

A: First of all after the injury to the lisfranc joint on my left foot, the jumps which caused the least stress to it were the loop and lutz. Although the lutz takes off on the left foot, unlike the flip it takes off on the outside edge and relative to the flip, more weight is placed on the heel. Therefore, precisely due to more weight being bore by the heel, as less burden is placed on the lisfranc joint I practiced it.

It helped he already had the 4Lo etc, but his priority considering his state is his left foot and health.
 
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Khoai

Match Penalty
Joined
Apr 3, 2015
oh I see, so to Mr. Hanyu, the Lutz and Loop are actually safer than Toe Loop and Flip now. I have noticed his outside edge is stronger than inside.
 

Yatagarasu

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 29, 2015
oh I see, so to Mr. Hanyu, the Lutz and Loop are actually safer than Toe Loop and Flip now. I have noticed his outside edge is stronger than inside.

Yes.
He's talked about several things in that interview, including acquiring the 4Lo, a combination with it (that we have video of by now), replacing the last 3Lz with a solo quad, etc. You might like to read it, I did find it very interesting - here.
 
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vorravorra

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 9, 2016
Thank you for saying this not many people appreciate how difficult is this program! BESP people were too very complimentary especially Catherine whose comments on choreo I find interesting. But unless you can read Russian you have no idea how much criticism Kolyada's programs receive in his home land ranging from 'juniorish' to 'a playing a village idiot' ...and so on :shrug:
To be fair, it's not just in his homeland. A lot of people dislike Mikhail's programs. Skating around looking pretty like he does in the EX always seems to be a safer bet. Maybe next season we'll see him do both and everyone will be happy (or at least more people will be).
 
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silverfoxes

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 16, 2014
To be fair, it's not just in his homeland. A lot of people dislike Mikhail's programs. Skating around looking pretty like he does in the EX always seems to be a safer bet. Maybe next season we'll see him do both and everyone will be happy (or at least more people will be).

Well, I can only speak for myself, but my problem is that his SP and his LPs from last season and this season are all extremely similar to the point of cliche. I don't want to keep seeing reiterations of the same "quirky" program. It was cute last season, now it's stale and tiresome. And yes I know he was forced to scrap his new SP, but unfortunately he still comes off as a bit of a one-trick pony so far. And I'm sure he can handle another style, but he needs a new choreographer ASAP.
 

vorravorra

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 9, 2016
Well, I can only speak for myself, but my problem is that his SP and his LPs from last season and this season are all extremely similar to the point of cliche. I don't want to keep seeing reiterations of the same "quirky" program. It was cute last season, now it's stale and tiresome. And yes I know he was forced to scrap his new SP, but unfortunately he still comes off as a bit of a one-trick pony so far. And I'm sure he can handle another style, but he needs a new choreographer ASAP.
His EX was created for the specific purpose of showing he can do a different style (first of all to the Fed it appears), and it's by the same choreographer. That doesn't mean that he wouldn't do better with another choreographer, but it shows that the problem is not Olga's limited range or a lack of desire to do different programs.
 
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