2016-17 GPF Mens SP

Perhaps some of the discussion can be taken over to the Data Analysis thread where you can look at the numbers in more detail?

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61796

Meoima said:

With 18 crossovers and no quads, someone can say Adam Rippon has come furthest as he can. http://chibura.tumblr.com/post/153879348150/original-post-in-russian-by-yulena

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You have your opinion of Adam's skating. I did not say he's the best skater out there or that he has the best transitions. But he is a top-notch, well-rounded skater who has indeed come further than many people expected him to in the current environment, and that's a fact. Plus, there's no question that Adam is a beautiful skater expressively and stylistically, with gorgeous spins and wonderful choreo. Even Adam acknowledges that he needs to work on smoothing out the flow of his skating and he has made some strides. I am not a person that refuses to acknowledge weaknesses vs strengths of any skater. But you go over the top in being dismissive of Adam, and refusing to acknowledge that flaws exist in the scoring system. As I said earlier, I feel Adam should have been ahead of at least Shoma and Nathan in the sp. I also feel it's arguable that Patrick should have been slightly ahead of Yuzu because Yuzu was not perfect, while Patrick skated with less overt problems on landings. As far as skating skills, Patrick Chan is the best in the world, and Patrick IMO rivals Yuzu artistically as well.

Quads are treated as everything, and they are not everything. Quads should be appreciated for what they do bring to the sport without being the be all and end all. If quads are the most important, then as I said, make it a full blown jumping contest and refuse to allow anyone who doesn't perform them to compete.

Meoima said:

Pardon me but you're everything stands for a conservative view that drag sport backwards while it should go forward.

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Again, your opinion and I'm not here to change your opinion nor anyone else's. But I will continue to share how I feel in a thoughtful way taking into account a full perspective of the sport. If you are only interested in what's happening now with no understanding of how the sport developed, that's your prerogative. I don't think it's conservative to want to see great skating that combines the best of art and sport, as well as a scoring system that is fair, balanced and less convoluted for judges, skaters and fans.

eta said:

^Care to elaborate on "way too much tech" you mentioned?

And after Javi went first and received the scores he did I actually think both Chan an Hanyu were underscored in comparison.

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I do feel that Javi was overscored with his two mistakes, but what difference does it make? The judges love who they love, and they love skaters who they know can perform quads well, so they quite often don't treat favorites too harshly when they make mistakes on quads. The judges also rarely nitpick on skaters they consider above the rest when it comes to quads. It's already been proven that your PCS get a boost if you gain a reputation for performing quads that look good when you're on. At this point, I do feel that Javi is more in tune with himself and the audience when he's in the zone, than Yuzu. In other words, I find Javi's performance style more engaging. I enjoy Yuzu in spurts, but often I find Yuzu quite sloppy, frenetic at times, and overly intense about living up to his standing and reputation.

Too much tech to me is 3/3s with 3/3/2s, and 4/3 with additional single quads & triples along with 2 triples axels (one in combination), etc. There's no room in a free program with so many jump requirements to actually focus on complete skating. I think it is ludicrous to expect so much from these skaters. Obviously, it is a rarity to skate clean and go after so many quads JUST TO RACK UP THE POINTS. It's cool to learn and compete quads, but not when they are the absolute priority because doing many of them well is the only way to make the podium. IMO, there needs to be more balance, which does not mean putting limits on quads. It does mean improving the scoring system and making it more important to skate clean than to eke out a bunch of extra revolutions while skating sloppy. Clearly it is important these days to emphasize the athletic aspects of fs, but the fact is that athleticism has always been important in figure skating. And all of the skaters are exerting themselves at a high level athletically! IMO, aesthetic aspects are also important and go hand-in-hand with skating skills. What these skaters do on a regular basis even without quads needs to be better appreciated, understood and respected. There are no sissies in figure skating.

Art&Sport said:

What these skaters do on a regular basis even without quads needs to be better appreciated, understood and respected. There are no sissies in figure skating.

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And this is why there are such analysis: http://chibura.tumblr.com/post/153879348150/original-post-in-russian-by-yulena

This is not ballet on ice, get over it.

Shorinji said:

Yes, I agree, score inflation is the problem....but the scoring system can only be fair when the majority of the skaters compete based on same levels be it jumping or artistry skills. Now, all the skaters varies, i.e. focusing too much on jumping etc....But until then, the system will and continue to be bias , I assume....flowing with the trend. So each skaters have to wok hard and keep challenging to keep up with a system that rewards a quad fall far better than a `clean and safe` program. I feel that the ladies skating are more towards a fair system cause every skaters are almost equal in their skills...that is why the judges are penalizing them on under rotations starting this season....so I guess this will happen to the men as well if most of them have equal skill to jump quads.

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No, the scoring system needs to be thoroughly reviewed by bringing in knowledgeable coaches and skaters as well as experts in other fields and other sports to gain new ideas and perspective on how to streamline and balance the scoring. The problem is how the IJS was forced into place too quickly for the wrong reasons, and has constantly been re-regulated every year. They made a mistake in not understanding the value of the 6.0 brand. I am not saying the previous system was better, but they should have thought more about how best to incorporate a similar idea instead of the strictly numbers, numbers and more numbers game with no end in sight.

Individual skaters will always have strengths and weaknesses. They are not going to all excel in every aspect to the highest level. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses, and areas to improve upon. That is the case in every sport. Therefore, I do not think you are making much sense in saying that the majority of skaters need to compete based on the same levels! That does not happen in diving, it does not happen in gymnastics, it does not happen in baseball, or any other sport.

Art&Sport said:

No, the scoring system needs to be thoroughly reviewed by bringing in knowledgeable coaches and skaters as well as experts in other fields and other sports to gain new ideas and perspective on how to streamline and balance the scoring. The problem is how the IJS was forced into place too quickly for the wrong reasons, and has constantly been re-regulated every year. They made a mistake in not understanding the value of the 6.0 brand. I am not saying the previous system was better, but they should have thought more about how best to incorporate a similar idea instead of the strictly numbers, numbers and more numbers game with no end in sight.

Individual skaters will always have strengths and weaknesses. They are not going to all excel in every aspect to the highest level. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses, and areas to improve upon. That is the case in every sport. Therefore, I do not think you are making much sense in saying that the majority of skaters need to compete based on the same levels! That does not happen in diving, it does not happen in gymnastics, it does not happen in baseball, or any other sport.

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The scoring system is only fair to you when there is less quads and skaters who do not dare to take risk get huge "artistic rewards" because you believe their artistry as the best. Because your favourites can not do more difficulties and dare not to, so the system is unfair to you. This is the reality that you want.

Meoima said:

And this is why there are such analysis: http://chibura.tumblr.com/post/153879348150/original-post-in-russian-by-yulena

This is not ballet on ice, get over it.

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And you might as well get over your strictly "quads are everything" views. And especially your nose in the air conceit that figure skating is more about sport, and thus art should take a back seat. To begin with, your idea that "ballet on ice" is a way of trashing my point of view is laughable. Ballet dancers are some of the absolute best athletes in the world Meoima! Ballet dancers make the athletic feats they perform on a daily basis look easy. Few skaters are as fit athletically, and even fewer are as graceful and expressive artistically as ballet dancers.

Training in ballet off-ice can only help most skaters to improve technically and artistically. But figure skating indeed is not ballet on ice. Figure skating is special and unique in its own right.

Art&Sport said:

And you might as well get over your strictly "quads are everything" views.

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talk about not reading anything I post. Darling, I keep sending you over and over again analysis of TRANSITIONS which is NOT ABOUT THE JUMPS. But you ignore. Talk about being ignorant. :rofl2:

Art&Sport said:

And especially your nose in the air conceit that figure skating is more about sport and art should take a back seat. To begin with, your idea that "ballet on ice" is a way of trashing my point of view is laughable. Ballet dancers are some of the absolute best athletes in the world Meoima! Ballet dancers make the athletic feats they perform on a daily basis look easy. Few skaters are as fit athletically, and even fewer are as graceful and expressive artistically as ballet dancers.

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Darling, that's why I said FS is NOT ballet on ice, get over it.

Art&Sport said:

Training in ballet off-ice can only help most skaters to improve technically and artistically. But figure skating indeed is not ballet on ice. Figure skating is special and unique in its own right.

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It is still a sport, you can not go out, do some beautiful pose and call it a day. You have to move and to master difficult techniques. If you CAN NOT ACCEPT that SPORTS are about STRENGTH AND TECHNIQUE AND MOVING FORWARD, then no one can change you.

Meoima said:

The scoring system is only fair to you when there is less quads and skaters who do not dare to take risk get huge "artistic rewards" because you believe their artistry as the best. Because your favourites can not do more difficulties and dare not to, so the system is unfair to you. This is the reality that you want.

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Nope Meoima. Sadly, that's your knee-jerk, defensive interpretation of what I'm saying, because you are defending the status of your favorites. Personally, I am looking at the sport as a whole. I have many favorites from many countries. What I love most of all is great, well-rounded skating that uplifts the sport. Quads are a big part of that picture, but NOT the whole entirety of the picture as they are in the current reality. You can have the reality you prefer and you're welcome to it.

Art&Sport said:

Nope Meoima. Sadly, that's your knee-jerk, defensive interpretation of what I'm saying, because you are defending the status of your favorites. Personally, I am looking at the sport as a whole. I have many favorites from many countries. What I love most of all is great, well-rounded skating that uplifts the sport. Quads are a big part of that picture, but NOT the whole entirety of the picture as they are in the current reality. You can have the reality you prefer and you're welcome to it.

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and still keep ignoring the blog I posted which is about transitions and not quads. You are so cute.

Meoima said:

talk about not reading anything I post. Darling, I keep sending you over and over again analysis of TRANSITIONS which is NOT ABOUT THE JUMPS. But you ignore. Talk about being ignorant. :rofl2:


Darling, that's why I said FS is NOT ballet on ice, get over it.


It is still a sport, you can not go out, do some beautiful pose and call it a day. You have to move and to master difficult techniques. If you CAN NOT ACCEPT that SPORTS are about STRENGTH AND TECHNIQUE AND MOVING FORWARD, then no one can change you.

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And you are choosing to ignore a lot of what I'm saying. So "pot, kettle, black." And if you must resort to simplistic exaggerations and insults, so be it. There's no point in responding to your posts. You are free to see things from the lens you prefer and from the perspective you have. In any case, it's also an insult to say that any skater who made it to the GPF only went out and did "some beautiful pose and called it a day." :noshake:

It's your problem if you don't see the strengths and technique involved in skating well at this high level of the sport. Adam and many other male skaters do not consistently perform quads. At least Adam has gone out and tried his best and maximized what he does well. And he has landed quads, and he has kept trying his best to try and master them in his late twenties. That is nothing to be dismissive about, but you can continue to be dismissive toward him as you will. I don't think "darling" has much to do with our back and forth here.

Art&Sport said:

And you are choosing to ignore a lot of what I'm saying. So "pot, kettle, black." And if you must resort to simplistic exaggerations and insults, so be it. There's no point in responding to your posts. You are free to see things from the lens you prefer and from the perspective you have. In any case, it's also an insult to say that any skater who made it to the GPF only went out and did "some beautiful pose and called it a day." :noshake:

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when did I say that? I did not even mention any skater at GPF

Art&Sport said:

It's your problem if you don't see the strengths and technique involved in skating well at this high level of the sport. Adam and many other male skaters do not consistently perform quads. At least Adam has gone out and tried his best and maximized what he does well. And he has landed quads, and he has kept trying his best to try and master them in his late twenties. That is nothing to be dismissive about, but you can continue to be dismissive toward him as you will. I don't think "darling" has much to do with our back and forth here.

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I can't with this. Do you have any issue with reading comprehension? Why are you assuming everything people talk is about Adam?

Art&Sport said:

I do feel that Javi was overscored with his two mistakes, but what difference does it make? The judges love who they love, and they love skaters who they know can perform quads well, so they quite often don't treat favorites too harshly when they make mistakes on quads. The judges also rarely nitpick on skaters they consider above the rest when it comes to quads. It's already been proven that your PCS get a boost if you gain a reputation for performing quads that look good when you're on. At this point, I do feel that Javi is more in tune with himself and the audience when he's in the zone, than Yuzu. In other words, I find Javi's performance style more engaging. I enjoy Yuzu in spurts, but often I find Yuzu quite sloppy, frenetic at times, and overly intense about living up to his standing and reputation.

Too much tech to me is 3/3s with 3/3/2s, and 4/3 with additional single quads & triples along with 2 triples axels (one in combination), etc. There's no room in a free program with so many jump requirements to actually focus on complete skating. I think it is ludicrous to expect so much from these skaters. Obviously, it is a rarity to skate clean and go after so many quads JUST TO RACK UP THE POINTS. It's cool to learn and compete quads, but not when they are the absolute priority because doing many of them well is the only way to make the podium. IMO, there needs to be more balance, which does not mean putting limits on quads. It does mean improving the scoring system and making it more important to skate clean than to eke out a bunch of extra revolutions while skating sloppy. Clearly it is important these days to emphasize the athletic aspects of fs, but the fact is that athleticism has always been important in figure skating. And all of the skaters are exerting themselves at a high level athletically! IMO, aesthetic aspects are also important and go hand-in-hand with skating skills. What these skaters do on a regular basis even without quads needs to be better appreciated, understood and respected. There are no sissies in figure skating.

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We'll just have to disagree then. I find Javi slower more often and his jumps aren't as "clean" plus with more pre-rotation (yes I know judges don't care about pre-rotation but I still do).

With these SP scores in particular I feel Hanyu was underscored for TR plus some other areas that may or may not be due to my personal taste so I'll not mention.


With tech, as long as the program doesn't have jump-stroke-jump-stroke-etc. I don't see the problem with whatever the type of jump - if a nicely choreographed program is able to have multiple quads with nice transitions and other elements, and it gives a lot of points, then why not? Some skaters takes longer to set up triples than other skaters do with quads. If I wanted to see clean programs, there is the great option of watching shows and exhibitions, many of which are much better than the lower-difficulty competitive programs. I don't expect a competitive program that has a high level of difficulty to be clean - if it does, then I consider it a gift to be appreciated and cherished.

Meoima said:

Before GPF, None of the men skated clean this season.

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If ypu would correct me, did Patrick skated clean in CoC...I remember it was amazing watching him there
EDIT:　I checked, he has a fall、my　mistake

Now that the shock is over, maybe we can analyze what happened? Have Javier or Patrick made comments?

Art&Sport said:

You have your opinion of Adam's skating. I did not say he's the best skater out there or that he has the best transitions. But he is a top-notch, well-rounded skater who has indeed come further than many people expected him to in the current environment, and that's a fact. Plus, there's no question that Adam is a beautiful skater expressively and stylistically, with gorgeous spins and wonderful choreo. Even Adam acknowledges that he needs to work on smoothing out the flow of his skating and he has made some strides. I am not a person that refuses to acknowledge weaknesses vs strengths of any skater. But you go over the top in being dismissive of Adam, and refusing to acknowledge that flaws exist in the scoring system. As I said earlier, I feel Adam should have been ahead of at least Shoma and Nathan in the sp. I also feel it's arguable that Patrick should have been slightly ahead of Yuzu because Yuzu was not perfect, while Patrick skated with less overt problems on landings. As far as skating skills, Patrick Chan is the best in the world, and Patrick IMO rivals Yuzu artistically as well.

Quads are treated as everything, and they are not everything. Quads should be appreciated for what they do bring to the sport without being the be all and end all. If quads are the most important, then as I said, make it a full blown jumping contest and refuse to allow anyone who doesn't perform them to compete.



Again, your opinion and I'm not here to change your opinion nor anyone else's. But I will continue to share how I feel in a thoughtful way taking into account a full perspective of the sport. If you are only interested in what's happening now with no understanding of how the sport developed, that's your prerogative. I don't think it's conservative to want to see great skating that combines the best of art and sport, as well as a scoring system that is fair, balanced and less convoluted for judges, skaters and fans.



I do feel that Javi was overscored with his two mistakes, but what difference does it make? The judges love who they love, and they love skaters who they know can perform quads well, so they quite often don't treat favorites too harshly when they make mistakes on quads. The judges also rarely nitpick on skaters they consider above the rest when it comes to quads. It's already been proven that your PCS get a boost if you gain a reputation for performing quads that look good when you're on. At this point, I do feel that Javi is more in tune with himself and the audience when he's in the zone, than Yuzu. In other words, I find Javi's performance style more engaging. I enjoy Yuzu in spurts, but often I find Yuzu quite sloppy, frenetic at times, and overly intense about living up to his standing and reputation.

Too much tech to me is 3/3s with 3/3/2s, and 4/3 with additional single quads & triples along with 2 triples axels (one in combination), etc. There's no room in a free program with so many jump requirements to actually focus on complete skating. I think it is ludicrous to expect so much from these skaters. Obviously, it is a rarity to skate clean and go after so many quads JUST TO RACK UP THE POINTS. It's cool to learn and compete quads, but not when they are the absolute priority because doing many of them well is the only way to make the podium. IMO, there needs to be more balance, which does not mean putting limits on quads. It does mean improving the scoring system and making it more important to skate clean than to eke out a bunch of extra revolutions while skating sloppy. Clearly it is important these days to emphasize the athletic aspects of fs, but the fact is that athleticism has always been important in figure skating. And all of the skaters are exerting themselves at a high level athletically! IMO, aesthetic aspects are also important and go hand-in-hand with skating skills. What these skaters do on a regular basis even without quads needs to be better appreciated, understood and respected. There are no sissies in figure skating.

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If you compare the score of Nathan in GPF and Patrick in CoC, I can see that the judging system is kind of fair....Nathan gain points technically while skating clean and Patrick balanced his points both technically and artistically....with a fall...

Here in Marseille was the first time I really liked ... Yuzuru SP. I don't know whether that was more because of getting used to it or he seemed more laid-back or sharp. I think more of the latter

So I was at the venue and want to share quickly my impression of the event. Patrick and Hanyu, they clearly stand out within the pack with their high-quality skating. Patrick with his powerful, deep edges and Hanyu with his silky smoothness and what they both own is the SPEED generated so easily. As we know, speed is everything in figure skating. It was wonderful to see Patrick skate a clean, beautiful short. He really is a master of the blade. I was like many of you skeptical about Hanyu's choice of Prince's music but he really owned the program that night and he was just electrifying. How the audience went crazy! Just imagine how incredibly hard it is to build in all these quick gestures and spontaneity while doing this extremely difficult program. People who aren't into figure skating even texted me to tell me that his performance was just WOW after they watched it on TV. He has this unique attractiveness that draws even uninterested ppl into the sport through his performance which is GOOD! Javi clearly did not live up to his potential. Really a shame as there were a large number of Spanish fans that came to Marseille for him. Shoma has a wonderful quality in his skating but needs some visible effort to get the speed and to achieve a good ice coverage. After I saw his gala program, I also felt he still has a rather limited range in his expression (general posture, hand and arm movements). I liked Nathan's short a lot with his balletic movements but watching him live I noticed they appear somehow abrupt and doesn't have flow from the previous movement to the next. Adam of course had to suffer from the easiest technical content. The program is fun to watch but due to this fact it lacked some of the excitement factor I personally expect in Men's competition, especially when you actually sit on the hard, uncomfortable chair for many hours, freezing, you want to be rewarded with the sight of some big elements. Maybe it's just me. But honestly I can perfectly live with, well, one failed quad attempt in a program because I find those efforts already exciting. And we all know these efforts will pay off for everybody someday. Now I wonder if Adam's gonna raise the difficulty in his short later in the season?