2017 Russian Junior Nationals Ladies FS | Page 16 | Golden Skate

2017 Russian Junior Nationals Ladies FS

hanca

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
I'd rather have Zagitova as Olympic champion than Medvedeva for thousand of reasons.

I would rather have Tsurskaya than Medvedeva or Zagitova as Olympic champion, but I can't say I would prefer Zagitova over Medvedeva. Medvedeva does deserves better PCS than Zagitova if they technical score matches. Medvedeva may need to move all her jumps to the second half of the program though, if she wants the technical score to match to Zagitova.
 

venx

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 29, 2017
I would rather have Tsurskaya than Medvedeva or Zagitova as Olympic champion, but I can't say I would prefer Zagitova over Medvedeva. Medvedeva does deserves better PCS than Zagitova if they technical score matches. Medvedeva may need to move all her jumps to the second half of the program though, if she wants the technical score to match to Zagitova.
For me personally, Olympic champion is an instant role model in any sport, all the more in as individual and technical one as figure skating. Then, the basis of fs are jumps.

So if you were a coach, whom would you rather have as an example of jumping technique for aspiring kids: Med or Zag?
 

hanca

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
For me personally, Olympic champion is an instant role model in any sport, all the more in as individual and technical one as figure skating. Then, the basis of fs are jumps.

So if you were a coach, whom would you rather have as an example of jumping technique for aspiring kids: Med or Zag?

Medvedeva because she managed to be consistent for longer. Zagitova has been consistent only this last season, which doesn't make it very long term yet. After all, Lipnitskaya was consistent one season too, so was Sotnikova, and Tuktamysheva... From all the current Russian ladies the longest consistent jumps are with Medvedeva.
 

atsumiri

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 22, 2015
Medvedeva because she managed to be consistent for longer. Zagitova has been consistent only this last season, which doesn't make it very long term yet. After all, Lipnitskaya was consistent one season too, so was Sotnikova, and Tuktamysheva... From all the current Russian ladies the longest consistent jumps are with Medvedeva.
Sotnikova has never been consistent.
She just managed to be clean in the right place and the right time.
 

venx

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 29, 2017
Medvedeva because she managed to be consistent for longer. Zagitova has been consistent only this last season, which doesn't make it very long term yet. After all, Lipnitskaya was consistent one season too, so was Sotnikova, and Tuktamysheva... From all the current Russian ladies the longest consistent jumps are with Medvedeva.
Why would skating coach teaching technique care about longevity rather than proper execution?
"You see how she flutzes and muscles her axels? Emulate it, because it makes you consistent." :laugh:

I'm pretty sure every single coach in the world would rather teach his kids to jump pointing to Zagitova's technique rather than Medevedeva's.
 
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hanca

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
Sotnikova has never been consistent.
She just managed to be clean in the right place and the right time.

Sotnikova managed to win every competition she entered in her first junior season 2010-11, which means she was pretty consistent.
 

hanca

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
Why would skating coach teaching technique care about longevity rather than proper execution?
"You see how she flutzes and muscles her axels? Emulate it, because it makes you consistent." :laugh:

I'm pretty sure every single coach in the world would rather teach his kids to jump pointing to Zagitova's technique rather than Medevedeva's.
Why would a skating coach care about longevity? Because without that any lady skater may get an idea that you need to win the medal (worlds or olympics) and then quickly retire, because your succes won't last longer than a season. Whereas Medvedeva is showing that it can last longer even when you are at the top.
 

vorravorra

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 9, 2016
Medvedeva because she managed to be consistent for longer. Zagitova has been consistent only this last season, which doesn't make it very long term yet. After all, Lipnitskaya was consistent one season too, so was Sotnikova, and Tuktamysheva... From all the current Russian ladies the longest consistent jumps are with Medvedeva.
Zagitova has not been consistent even this entire season. She had a meltdown in Slovenia and some not very successful skates at the Russian Cup events.
 

Pracygr

On the Ice
Joined
May 6, 2016
Why would skating coach teaching technique care about longevity rather than proper execution?
"You see how she flutzes and muscles her axels? Emulate it, because it makes you consistent." :laugh:

I'm pretty sure every single coach in the world would rather teach his kids to jump pointing to Zagitova's technique rather than Medevedeva's.
Because longevity requires consistency, which is based on repeatability, streamlining, continuity, economy of motion, all those things that make for a well technically equipped athlete. Judges don't appreciate whether you have the most effortless axel on the planet or the deepest outside edge on your Lutz if you keep falling. Check protocols if you don't trust me on that. Being able to complete your jumps even when you're not feeling well, not in best shape, your body is changing, is actually a remarkable technical achievement.

As for emulating other skaters, the coach that is inclined to just blindly copy other skaters, even Olympic champions, should be seriously in question on whether he's qualified for his job. Everybody is different. If your body is significantly different from Zagitova, it might be very bad idea to try to copy her. Conversely, if your body is very much like Evgenia's, then you probably struggle with all the same things, and learning from her how to make most out of what you have is likely very good idea.
 
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venx

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 29, 2017
Because longevity requires consistency, which is based on repeatability, streamlining, continuity, economy of motion, all those things that make for a well technically equipped athlete.
Repeatability, streamlining, continuity of constant flutz and muscled out axel may be positive features for professional Medvedeva, not for young learning kids and their coaches.

Judges don't appreciate whether you have the most effortless axel on the planet or the deepest outside edge on your Lutz if you keep falling.
Thing is, Zagitova is not falling and she's better technically equipped jumper than Medvedeva.

Conversely, if your body is very much like Evgenia's, then you probably struggle with all the same things, and learning from her how to make most out of what you have is likely very good idea.
The question is, what percentage of aspiring female skaters have super lean, asthenic bodies like Evgenia to have her as an overall example for aspiring kids? 1 out of 10?
Meanwhile, I've seen hordes of skaters looking like Zagitova, she's basically your typical pre-puberty Mary with much better technique than Medvedeva. Better potential Olympic Champion for most of girls to emulate.
 

Pracygr

On the Ice
Joined
May 6, 2016
venx Since you didn't give me a proper concise response and I'm not going to go into quotation hell for this conversation, I'm only going to cover a couple of points.

Thing is, Zagitova is not falling and she's better technically equipped jumper than Medvedeva.
Thing is, this is irrelevant. What I was talking about is importance of longevity as well as how it's built on technical foundation, things that you described as something coach "shouldn't care about". What I got from you is a bit of mockery and then this piece that doesn't follow up on your point at all. Did you miss track of what you were arguing for?

I hear what you suggesting as far as Olympic champion goes. However, with the tone, the arbitrary claims, and the line of argument that you've taken, you give me a good reason to believe that your preference towards future champion follows from personal dislike of a skater more than anything else.
 
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hanca

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
I would like to see a coach who doesn't care about longevity of his/her skaters. Unless you are Tutberidze and can replace one girl with another one as soon as one moves away, you want your skater to last at the top for as long as possible, because the skater's success is also your success. If you put so much effort into the skater, you don't want to skater to last only one season.
 

vorravorra

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 9, 2016
Frankly, teaching a technique that has not been tested for survival during/after puberty to other young skaters seems to be extremely unwise (unless you don't really care about what happens to them later). If Zagitova's jumps survive puberty, then she can be used as an example.
And why is it necessary to chose whose technique to emulate between Medvedeva and Zagitova? There are no other techniques? And what is so special about Zagitova's jump technique (rather than say her stamina that allows her to backload)?
 

venx

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 29, 2017
Frankly, teaching a technique that has not been tested for survival during/after puberty to other young skaters seems to be extremely unwise (unless you don't really care about what happens to them later). If Zagitova's jumps survive puberty, then she can be used as an example.
So in your opinion, the skating coach should teach Medvedeva's flutzing rather than Zagitova's correct edge lutz, because the earlier is tested for survival?

And why is it necessary to chose whose technique to emulate between Medvedeva and Zagitova? There are no other techniques? And what is so special about Zagitova's jump technique (rather than say her stamina that allows her to backload)?
1. For academic dispute's sake "who would be 'better' Oly Champ: Med or Zagi". :)
2. That's the whole point: there is nothing special about Zagi's technique apart from being correct, it's Medvedeva's technique that is special: incorrect, adjusted to her specific physical features, that minority of female skaters possess.

I'd rather have Oly Champ with proper technique and suited for majority of fs population.
 

Hannah555

Ava artwork by talented ShampooNeko
Final Flight
Joined
Jan 29, 2017
Personally I would just love to see three of them : Zag, Med and Tsu together on ice competing with each other and Tutberidze watching her 3 girls battle )))
 

venx

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 29, 2017
Thing is, this is irrelevant. What I was talking about is importance of longevity as well as how it's built on technical foundation, things that you described as something coach "shouldn't care about".
Main focus in elementary fs coaching is teaching proper technique, because for majority of skaters population it's long-standing per se. It's obvious.

The fact there is some unique successful skater from Russia that constantly flutzes, muscles out her jumps and judges reward her with all of the titles shouldn't change principles of figure skating teaching. This sport is +100yo.
 

hanca

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
Main focus in elementary fs coaching is teaching proper technique, because for majority of skaters population it's long-standing per se. It's obvious.

The fact there is some unique successful skater from Russia that constantly flutzes, muscles out her jumps and judges reward her with all of the titles shouldn't change principles of figure skating teaching. This sport is +100yo.

Well, whatever happens, at this stage Zagitova is still nobody. After one succesful season, that means nothing for her future. In a year time things may be different, but there were plenty of succesful juniors in the past...
 

[email protected]

Medalist
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
The fact there is some unique successful skater from Russia that constantly flutzes, muscles out her jumps...

The only non-Russian competition this successful skater from Russia currently has is a Japanese skater with ridiculous jump technique, an American skater who not only has wrong edges but URs almost everything, and a Canadian skater who flutzes and has not been ever able to skate a clean FS with 7 triples.

So let's give Medvedeva a break.
 

coldblueeyes

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Country
Brazil
The only non-Russian competition this successful skater from Russia currently has is a Japanese skater with ridiculous jump technique, an American skater who not only has wrong edges but URs almost everything, and a Canadian skater who flutzes and has not been ever able to skate a clean FS with 7 triples.

So let's give Medvedeva a break.

Some people act like she's turning triples into singles with how bad her technique supposedly is. She has a fairly big problem with one single jump in her entire arsenal, which she uses just once because she knows about it too. Just because her flutz isn't as high as Kaetlyn's it doesn't mean it's any different, and so far only one of them has been able to get away with it consistently - and it's not Medvedeva, but I guess that might be her fault too.

Edit: And I had to add the fact that she's my least favorite skater, but it boggles my mind how some people act like she's not putting the best skated programs out there for two seasons now.
 
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venx

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 29, 2017
The only non-Russian competition this successful skater from Russia currently has is a Japanese skater with ridiculous jump technique, an American skater who not only has wrong edges but URs almost everything, and a Canadian skater who flutzes and has not been ever able to skate a clean FS with 7 triples.

So let's give Medvedeva a break.
As I've already written, all of this is purely academic, irrelevant to the real life discussion "who'd be 'better' Oly champ: Med or Zagi?". At least from my side.
No need to go defensive, because I admire and respect Zhenya for basically all of her features, besides jumps: she's musical, graceful performer, tough, ambitious skater and just adorable girl.
Thing is, I put special weight on correct jumping technique.

And heck, I would have Evgenia over Ashley as a Oly champion 100%! :biggrin:
 
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