2017 Junior Worlds: Men's recap | Page 2 | Golden Skate

2017 Junior Worlds: Men's recap

tsuyoboogie

"Dedicate your heart" & Slay like an Ackerman
Record Breaker
Joined
May 4, 2014
My thought is they should stop those stupid rules in the SP.
Everyone skated clean in the SP, with the same jumps, 3A, 3Lz-3T, 3Lo. Good god, it's like audition for the same part. So boring.

If they want to not include quads in the SP, they should randomly assign the solo triples

1/3 of the men do solo 3Lz with steps
1/3 do solo 3F with steps
1/3 do solo 3Lo with steps.

adjust your combo based on your assigned solo triple. have some variety. These guys will have to put in quads in the LP anyway, why not have them in the SP. It's not like they can get away with it later.

I was under the impression that the ISU rotates the required SP jump (aside from the Axel) for Junior single skaters every season to encourage them to practice and develop all types of jumps. For example, during seasons when the Lutz is required, it'would be in the best interest for skaters who have issues with their Lutz edge to try and fix it rather than just relying on the Flip (and vice versa). Also, I don't follow Ladies as much but I've read that there are a few who have trouble jumping 3T in combo. This season required them to work on this issue since they were unable to combo the Loop.
I guess your suggestion of randomly assigned jumps could work but how far in advance would the skaters be notified so to plan for their SPs? The required jumps for the next two seasons have already been announced. To encourage development they would also have to ensure a skater doesn't keep drawing the same jump. What about the many skaters who might not be assigned to any international events? Seems like a lot of extra work for the ISU and/or individual federations.

Edit: Sorry, a bit off topic for this thread~
 
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FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
I was under the impression that the ISU rotates the required SP jump (aside from the Axel) for Junior single skaters every season to encourage them to practice and develop all types of jumps. For example, during seasons when the Lutz is required, it'would be in the best interest for skaters who have issues with their Lutz edge to try and fix it rather than just relying on the Flip (and vice versa). Also, I don't follow Ladies as much but I've read that there are a few who have trouble jumping 3T in combo. This season required them to work on this issue since they were unable to combo the Loop.

And randomly assigning the solo jump will encourage them to practice all types of jumps even more. Win win win there.


I guess your suggestion of randomly assigned jumps could work but how far in advance would the skaters be notified so to plan for their SPs? The required jumps for the next two seasons have already been announced. To encourage development they would also have to ensure a skater doesn't keep drawing the same jump. What about the many skaters who might not be assigned to any international events? Seems like a lot of extra work for the ISU and/or individual federations.

Edit: Sorry, a bit off topic for this thread~

They pick their starting order along with the solo triple requirement. So a day or two. The skaters who don't get any international events, well, they better work on those jumps as well in case they are sent. It's not extra work, just add one more line to the drawing order. A script can do it in fraction of a second.
Beside, if they can't do all the triples, they aren't that competitive anymore. Look at the junior championship this year, it's insanely difficult.
 

Skye

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
They pick their starting order along with the solo triple requirement. So a day or two. The skaters who don't get any international events, well, they better work on those jumps as well in case they are sent. It's not extra work, just add one more line to the drawing order. A script can do it in fraction of a second.

Oh puleeze. Each jump has a different entry and is integrated as part of the choreography. Changing a jump IS "extra work", epecially in the short program where you are required to have difficult steps preceding the solo jump.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Oh puleeze. Each jump has a different entry and is integrated as part of the choreography. Changing a jump IS "extra work", epecially in the short program where you are required to have difficult steps preceding the solo jump.

Extra work for everyone so no extra work for anyone. Fair game for everyone.
 

bobbob

Medalist
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Extra work for everyone so no extra work for anyone. Fair game for everyone.

This is simply a terrible idea...for argument's sake say skater A and B are clones, both flutz so can't do a proper lutz (only flip), but skater B draws loop solo jump while B draws lutz...so A loses to be for no reason other than a draw...that is just not fair. Alternatively, can we just say to one group of ladies you can do only double jumps and say to another group you can only do triples, and act like nothing happened and they can compete against each other? Obviously not the same but the analogy is.

There are other ways to encourage skaters to do all of the different types of jumps well, and I would be open to all of them as long as each skater had to do the same type of jump if there was any restriction at all.
 

xeyra

Constant state
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 10, 2017
We also must remember that different jumps have different BVs. Say someone gets assigned a Flip but someone else gets assigned the Loop. And thus starts off with assigned less BV already.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
This is simply a terrible idea...for argument's sake say skater A and B are clones, both flutz so can't do a proper lutz (only flip), but skater B draws loop solo jump while B draws lutz...so A loses to be for no reason other than a draw...that is just not fair. Alternatively, can we just say to one group of ladies you can do only double jumps and say to another group you can only do triples, and act like nothing happened and they can compete against each other? Obviously not the same but the analogy is.

There are other ways to encourage skaters to do all of the different types of jumps well, and I would be open to all of them as long as each skater had to do the same type of jump if there was any restriction at all.

And you forgot what the whole point of required solo jump is, so you cannot neglect your triples.

Guess what both A and B should be working on from start? A triple lutz. If B happens to gets a loop and A a lutz, then it's a variation and randomness. Their combo, I assume would be a 3flip-3toe for the A, or 3flip-3loop for A, and 3 flip-3toe for B because B is a flutzer as well. At the end of the program, their base value is going to be the same. Edge on lutz vs loop.

Different jumps have different base value. That is true if they can only do 1 jump in the program. In the SP, they are doing 3 jumping passes.

3lutz-3toe, 3flip
3flip-3toe, 3lutz
Both have the same base value. Medvedeva only does 3flip-3toe, 3loop. Doesn't hurt her at all compare to the two example above. So yeah, can't see the draw back. Only see how it forces all junior to master their triples correctly because it can be called upon at anytime.

Btw, do you tell your teacher what can be on the quiz? No. They can ask anything. You better be prepared.
 

Ice Dance

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
I'm sure it's only a matter of time before the quad is permitted in the junior men's short program, but I have to say all those clean short programs were by far my favorite part of the event. No, I wouldn't have ranked the men in the same order as the judges. But I LOVED watching the guys performing successfully. They were happier to do well, I think, than they would have been to make mistakes & place higher. To me, the short is about the ability to do the required elements. If you make a mistake, it hurts more than in the free skate. That is the point.

I agree that favoritism comes into play more when the technical side is more even. But the event wasn't over at that stage. The guys with clean skates were still tightly grouped. It didn't stop either Vincent or Daniel from showing their stuff & climbing the ranks in the free. And we saw a slew of glorious performances before the more volatile free. Better this than watching more top athletes pop & splat their way out of the event during the short program because they are taking so much risk.

The current format benefits the junior guys with strong triple axels. A more open format will allow the guys who have the quadruple jumps to show their stuff. Enough junior men are doing the quads now that it is becoming a necessity in order to finish in the final six. Which is why, ultimately, I'm sure we'll see the quad in the SP. For now, however, I'm just thrilled with all the fabulous clean short programs that we had the chance to see at this event.
 

Sweet Dream

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 16, 2014
Although I seldom complain about the judges' work, it is really unfair to see Samarin winning the bronze medal over Petrov with that awful FS at this Junior Worlds! 75+ PCS for that shaky program? Simply terrible Judging! :mad:
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
I agree about Samarin---he is a short program skater. He can flash dash and personality in the short program because it is short, but he loses stamina and focus midway in the freeskate, so the rest is usually sloppy and lackluster. He got the bronze via reputation, based on his GPF silver.

I find Petrov a tad boring, but his FS is better than his SP, which should have given him the bronze medal. Once again reputation kicked in---two years of low GP placements vs Samarin's JGP successes.

Samarin has to move up to the GP next year, and he won't find it easy to win medals based on PCS.
 

sheetz

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 10, 2015
Are all the top 7 (Zhou, Aliev, Samarin, Petrov, Cha, Samohin, Aymoz) moving onto senior GP next year? If they do then #8 Krasnozhon would be the highest placing man remaining in juniors for next year. Although I suppose some of them could return to next year's Junior Worlds even if they don't compete on the JGP.
 
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chuckm

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Aymoz, Samarin and Samohin have to move up to the GP next year, as Kevin was 19 in August, Daniel turned 19 this month, and Alexander will be 19 in June.
Petrov is 17 but has already had two GP seasons.
Aliev has one more season of junior eligibility, but he's already said he's moving up to senior next season.
Cha turned 15 in October, which is why he wasn't eligible for 4CC or Worlds this year. He is eligible for the GP next season.
I'm sure Zhou as US Senior silver medalist and JW Champion wants the GP next season. It wouldn't make much sense for him to do a 3rd JGP tour.
 
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Jammers

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Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
Aymoz, Samarin and Samohin have to move up to the GP next year, as Kevin was 19 in August, Daniel turned 19 this month, and Alexander will be 19 in June.
Petrov is 17 but has already had two GP seasons.
Aliev has one more season of junior eligibility, but he's already said he's moving up to senior next season.
Cha turned 15 in October, which is why he wasn't eligible for 4CC or Worlds this year. He is eligible for the GP next season.
I'm sure Zhou as US Senior Champion wants the GP next season. It wouldn't make much sense for him to do a 3rd JGP tour.

Zhou is US Senior champion? Has someone told Nathan? :laugh:
 

mrrice

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Zhou is US Senior champion? Has someone told Nathan? :laugh:

I know, Right!!!!:drama:

By the way, is Alexei Krasnozhon planning to move to up the Senior Level? If he's not too old to remain a Junior, I think he should stay there for another season.
 
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Jammers

Record Breaker
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Nov 4, 2010
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I know, Right!!!!:drama:

By the way, is Alexei Krasnozhon planning to move to up the Senior Level? If he's not too old to remain a Junior, I think he should stay there for another season.

I think he's staying another season on the JGP but i'm sure he will compete as a Senior at Nationals.
 

mrrice

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
I think he's staying another season on the JGP but i'm sure he will compete as a Senior at Nationals.

That's good news. Hopefully he'll follow in Vincent's footsteps and win Junior Worlds next year. 2018 is going to be very crowed with Senior Men and with Joshua and possibly Jeremy returning, I think Alexei would be wise to stay out of the fray until after the 2018 Games.
 
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