2017 World Team Trophy - Day 1 | Page 52 | Golden Skate

2017 World Team Trophy - Day 1

aynia

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Something was off with the scorebox, the numbers were going up and down like crazy and a bunch of skaters got a SB mark even if it wasn't in the scores.
At one point (I think after Elena Radionova's skate, Ashley Wagner was already skating) the leader's technical score was totally messed up, too - it showed over 100 points.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Popping a jump isn't visible error for regular spectator, who doesn't know anything about athletes layouts.
Step-outs, hand-down's don't take any "skate time" and are punishing enough with GOEs. Falls - do, but they're reducing presentation scores already with -1 from overall (TES+PCS).

In that point let's start reduce TES scores for skaters with lack of transitions or poor SS. Or increase points for jumps in programs with good presentation.

They should give deserved high PCS until Patrick or someone else are not lying there, on the ice for couple or more seconds after fall, and then not able to hold it together with difficult transitions and beautiful presentation.

I know in that case -/+ 2-3 points will not change anything for Hanyu or Chan, but for FS sake presentation should be awarded properly no matter what :)

We can agree to disagree but in a program with 3 jumping passes, popping one of them (and awkwardly at that) is very much a visible error. You don't have to know anything about athletes' layouts to know a pop is a mistake unless you're new to figure skating.... and can't tell the difference between a single and a quad/triple.

I kinda wish the computer hadn't negated the 1Lo* though... I was curious to see if any judge (*cough*Tomie*cough*) would have given the pop +GOE. Although, most surprisingly, they applied all -3s for the 4S+COMBO, and no -2s. The judges are learning! :laugh:
 

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
Woohoo Team Japan! Love the one two punch result. Great job Yuzu (the comeback prince) and Shomita!
 

Nika09

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 26, 2017
I kinda wish the computer hadn't negated the 1Lo* though... I was curious to see if any judge (*cough*Tomie*cough*) would have given the pop +GOE. Although, most surprisingly, they applied all -3s for the 4S+COMBO, and no -2s. The judges are learning! :laugh:

Well, I take a brief look at protocols and if I'm not wrong Hanyu get some +0.05/0.1 GOEs for his 1A.

Whole judging at Men's in last two days was pretty good.
 

xeyra

Constant state
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 10, 2017
Well, I take a brief look at protocols and if I'm not wrong Hanyu get some +0.05/0.1 GOEs for his 1A.

Whole judging at Men's in last two days was pretty good.

To be fair, that was a IB-SE-1A-SE. Points for original entry and exit! :laugh:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Well, I take a brief look at protocols and if I'm not wrong Hanyu get some +0.05/0.1 GOEs for his 1A.

Whole judging at Men's in last two days was pretty good.

Hah, yes he did. Although to be fair, it was a well executed single axel with entry/exit transitions! :laugh:

The GOE judging was for the most part correct (obviously there are outliers).

The PCS in the SP was appallingly bad (referring to Chan and Hanyu in particular), but in the FS it seems the judging panel got their stuff together and actually judged it properly.

Even though he came 2nd overall, edging out Yuzuru, it was probably a bad idea for Chen to have skated in Japan, given the PCS treatment that his marks got (a bit underscored, IMO, but the placements in the SP and FS were totally fine) -- he should avoid NHK trophy like the plague next season. It was like the opposite of home-ice inflation -- rival-ice deflation. :slink:

But other than that I agree with the PCS judging (save for shadyness, like 9.50 for performance for Uno, or 10.00 for interpretation for Hanyu -- augh, broken record here, but judges, for reals, STOP giving 10's for flawed performances!!! :bang:).
 
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skatelikewind1966

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 8, 2016
Why is everyone saying Chen is an inconsistent mess? She peaked at the two times she needed this season, and the mistakes she made at worlds weren't too big. Even when I watch her "disastrous" performances, (4cc and here), I feel like there is an over dramatization compared to what I watch. She seems like a cool and collected lady whose artistic ambition and nervousness may drive her to make mistakes. But she never looks afraid.

Plus next year is the olympics, so she won't have too much pressure as the usa number 1 because few expect her on the podium, unlike if it was a regular season and a medal at worlds was at stake. I think she'll hit when it matters.


To the chagrin of many, Karen Chen is the 2017 US Champion and in her senior debut the 2015 Bronze medalist. Looking at the 2017 US Championships, one skater who so many people love and praise had a horrific debut, got 10th yet so many called it a bad day and think she will come back from this horrific performance (I have no opinion). Yet, Karen has some bad skates when competing against some of the WORLD's top skaters and the haters come out of the woodwork with silly comments about her coach, her jumps, etc. I, too, am perplexed and honestly, saddened. I am not sure if there is another US skater who has truly done better, heck, the US Ladies have only 1 world medal in 11 years so I'm not sure who Karen is being compared to by the one's who have negative opinions.
 

Nika09

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 26, 2017
Hah, yes he did. Although to be fair, it was a well executed single axel with entry/exit transitions! :laugh:

The GOE judging was for the most part correct (obviously there are outliers).

The PCS in the SP was appallingly bad (referring to Chan and Hanyu in particular), but in the FS it seems the judging panel got their stuff together and actually judged it properly.

Even though he came 2nd overall, edging out Yuzuru, it was probably a bad idea for Chen to have skated in Japan, given the PCS treatment that his marks got (a bit underscored, IMO, but the placements in the SP and FS were totally fine) -- he should avoid NHK trophy like the plague next season. It was like the opposite of home-ice inflation -- rival-ice deflation. :slink:

But other than that I agree with the PCS judging (save for shadyness, like 9.50 for performance for Uno, or 10.00 for interpretation for Hanyu -- augh, broken record here, but judges, for reals, STOP giving 10's for flawed performances!!! :bang:).

PCS was my favorite part in that judging :yahoo:

I think Chen should avoid empty programs wherever he's skating (if he want to be considered as a good skater not only good jumper).
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
PCS was my favorite part in that judging :yahoo:

I think Chen should avoid empty programs wherever he's skating (if he want to be considered as a good skater not only good jumper).

I disagree that program was "empty". It was pretty apparent that his PCS was deliberately hit, especially in the SP (the FS pcs was about right). Swapping a 4Z for a 4T doesn't drop someone's PCS by over a full point (especially when Chen added things like the 3A transitions), and when you look at the PCS boosts the other guys were receiving in the SP, Chen's should have been higher... not that Japan has any stake in Chen's marks/placement.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/fc2017/fc2017_Men_SP_Scores.pdf

http://www.jsfresults.com/intl/2016-2017/wtt/data0103.pdf
 

Tavi...

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
I disagree that program was "empty". It was pretty apparent that his PCS was deliberately hit, especially in the SP (the FS pcs was about right). Swapping a 4Z for a 4T doesn't drop someone's PCS by over a full point (especially when Chen added things like the 3A transitions), and when you look at the PCS boosts the other guys were receiving in the SP, Chen's should have been higher... not that Japan has any stake in Chen's marks/placement.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/fc2017/fc2017_Men_SP_Scores.pdf

http://www.jsfresults.com/intl/2016-2017/wtt/data0103.pdf

Isn't it possible that these particular judges just didn't respond to his skating as much as they did to some others?
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Isn't it possible that these particular judges just didn't respond to his skating as much as they did to some others?

Sure, but compared to how well received most of the other guys were (some with considerable personal bests and some saved by PCS) and given Chen went clean, it was a bit suspect to see his marks drop. Although it doesn't really matter because the placements were correct.

Although, you're right. Judging panels can just disagree with previous ones. But given the feverish of some folks to see Chen marked down, especially those in Japan/fans of Japanese skaters, His PCS should have probably been higher than the hot mess SPs of Hanyu and Chan IMO, but well, seems like rival-ice deflation.
 

Tavi...

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
Sure, but compared to how well received most of the other guys were (some with considerable personal bests and some saved by PCS) and given Chen went clean, it was a bit suspect to see his marks drop. Although it doesn't really matter because the placements were correct.

Although, you're right. Judging panels can just disagree with previous ones. But given the feverish of some folks to see Chen marked down, especially those in Japan/fans of Japanese skaters, His PCS should have probably been higher than the hot mess SPs of Hanyu and Chan IMO, but well, seems like rival-ice deflation.

But how much influence do fans have on the way judges mark skaters? Yes, I'm sure the audience at a competition has an effect of some kind - but beyond that? Are judges paying close attention to what people write here or in YouTube comments and then scoring skaters accordingly? I don't know, but I tend to doubt it.

To be honest, I see the change in Nathan's marks a bit differently. It seems to me that at earlier competitions this season, judges were awarding high PCS in tandem with high TES and lots of quads. Here and at Worlds, that pattern seems to have been broken a bit, but it's hard to say why.
 

Tavi...

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
Some deluded fans actually think they have a significant effect on judging and will actively campaign against skaters they don't like or perceive as threats to their favourites. They be cray, but hey, whatever keeps them busy.

However, federations have significant influence and just as home inflation benefits home skaters, there is also politicking intended to hold back rival skaters.

Honestly, I think WTT was just an anomaly, and I suspect it's because Chen is the most legit rival to Uno and Hanyu, so not getting the PCS love on Japanese soil is hardly surprising (to me, at least). If I were him though, I would avoid Japanese competitions unless he is compelled to, unless he wants to see his PCS potentially take a hit.

You just KNOW the GPF in Nagoya is going to be a PCS lovefest for Uno/Hanyu, and I would not be surprised to see Fernandez, Chen, etc. get shafted on PCS. I mean, it is the major competition to pit the top skaters prior to the Olympics. And, interestingly, Japan has hosted the pre-Olympics GPF for the past 4 Olympics. Between Tokyo in 2005/2006, Tokyo in 2009/2010, Fukuoka 2013/2014 and Nagoya 2017/2018, the Japanese fed sure knows when to pick em! ;)

You may well be right that WTT scoring is an anomaly. It will be really interesting to see how Nathan (and everyone else) is scored next year, as well as what his new programs are like. But as to NHK - are you sure? He got 84+ PCS in FS there. He was lower in SP, but he skated in the first group. Or do you think they were generous there because he wasn't yet seen as a contender? Or because Jason was bombing?

That's interesting about Japan / GPF / Olympics- I had no idea!

One question I have as a relative newbie to FS: in your opinion, how do federations influence results? It's something I've heard a lot, but I'm never clear what it actually means (overscoring your top skaters at nationals to "position" them as winners internationally? Trading favors among federations (i.e., the kind of back room deals at SLC 2002?)). I'd be curious to know your thoughts.
 
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Li'Kitsu

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Sure, but compared to how well received most of the other guys were (some with considerable personal bests and some saved by PCS) and given Chen went clean, it was a bit suspect to see his marks drop. Although it doesn't really matter because the placements were correct.

Although, you're right. Judging panels can just disagree with previous ones. But given the feverish of some folks to see Chen marked down, especially those in Japan/fans of Japanese skaters, His PCS should have probably been higher than the hot mess SPs of Hanyu and Chan IMO, but well, seems like rival-ice deflation.

Do you have any legit proof or even remotely sense-making reasons why you think Japanese fans are super feverish about Nathan needing to be marked down?

Or is this just some more over-generalizing to win an internet argument?
 

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
Even though he came 2nd overall, edging out Yuzuru, it was probably a bad idea for Chen to have skated in Japan, given the PCS treatment that his marks got (a bit underscored, IMO, but the placements in the SP and FS were totally fine) -- he should avoid NHK trophy like the plague next season. It was like the opposite of home-ice inflation -- rival-ice deflation. :slink:

Yes, the way foreign skaters should avoid 2017 Skate America like plague, especially as it is the last event and US skaters will get even more boost than usually to get them into GPF, I´d guess....
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
In the free skate, Nathan peaked technically at 4CC. His tes was highest at 4CC, so it seems his pcs is being scored in a similar way. Or it could reinforce how his programs impact is hitting those jumps perfectly.

As for the SP...well Jason got his personal best pcs here, so I can't quite buy the foreign skaters are screwed theory.
 
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MaiKatze

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Yes, the way foreign skaters should avoid 2017 Skate America like plague, especially as it is the last event and US skaters will get even more boost than usually to get them into GPF, I´d guess....

Shoma has been doing well at Skate America. He has to skate somewhere and he won't get NHK, so I wonder where he'll go.
 

shine

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
And her free program is better than short. Do think she'll become China #1

Xiangning's foundations just seem so much stronger than Zijun's IMO - in terms of jumps, stroking and posture/line. And it's impressive how she was able to acquired both 3Z and 3F (in 3-3!) rather late!! Hope the Chinese fed sees the great potential in her and finally get her a real choreographer.
 
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