2017-18 State of Russian Ladies skating | Page 239 | Golden Skate

2017-18 State of Russian Ladies skating

Ares

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Country
Poland
Why is it, though? I mean, we look at Alexandra Trusova - She gets full levels on all the elements and ... well, is somewhat lacking in skating skills and presentation but not absolutely dreadful. She has more quads than any 13-year-old boy will likely ever have. We look at Anna Shcherbakova - She gets full levels on all the elements and also has a quad and her presentation skills are something else. Why can these girls do this? The quad thing hardly works as an excuse considering they also have been practicing it, and actually have it(Or Shcherbakova had it, hopefully she regains it).


Well in the first place there are more girls who skate or start to skate so it makes sense as you draw from a larger sample so there's more chance that you come across someone who developes so well and stands out like Trusova, someone exceptionally talented. The number of boys who enter figure skating is much, much smaller - there's no pressure either on, not so much competitivity either. You don't need to bother as much and you're not pushed by other competitors. Girls also develope differently than boys, till they hit full puberty the physical capability is approximate - there's no clear biological power advantage yet, and with certain areas like mastering those more fine, subtle motor skills (like balance) they actually outperform boys of the same age. Boys just stay clumsy for longer. Girls also hit their maturity earlier (ok, this one can work as a disadvantage, but they may gain various skills earlier on). That is not just figure skating related phenomenon, you can relate to it and describe that using different, even proved by science examples.
 

andromache

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Why is it, though? I mean, we look at Alexandra Trusova - She gets full levels on all the elements and ... well, is somewhat lacking in skating skills and presentation but not absolutely dreadful. She has more quads than any 13-year-old boy will likely ever have. We look at Anna Shcherbakova - She gets full levels on all the elements and also has a quad and her presentation skills are something else. Why can these girls do this? The quad thing hardly works as an excuse considering they also have been practicing it, and actually have it(Or Shcherbakova had it, hopefully she regains it).

I wonder how these girls are learning their quads in terms of technique - I imagine they are not learning their quads the same way that men learn theirs, and that can have an impact.

(Anna S. is a real savant - a natural talent, especially in terms of presentation. I'm not sure she can be grouped with the other Eteri ladies.)

All of the girls working so hard on flexibility helps a lot with having very good spins and getting those levels. The boys don't do this, either because it is seen as effeminate or it just isn't a priority.

I'll also add that I think girls tend to emotionally mature faster than boys, at least in general, which might make them better and more serious when it comes to training - Eteri mentioned in an interview that she thinks girls are more responsible and harder workers than boys, which she thinks are too coddled. (I might be exaggerating it too much, but that was the gist, as I recall.)

While there may or may not be anything to Eteri's theory, I think scientists/psychologists do agree that girls emotionally/cognitively mature faster than boys.
 

Shayuki

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Well in the first place there are more girls who skate or start to skate so it makes sense as you draw from larger sample so there's more chance that you come across someone who developes so well and stands out. Girls also develope differently than boys, till they hit full puberty the physical capability is approximate - there's no clear biological power advantage yet, and with certain areas like mastering those more fine, subtle skills (like balance) they actually outperform boys of the same age. Boys just stay clumsy for longer. Girls also can hit their maturity earlier (ok, this one can work as a disadvantage, but they may gain various skills earlier). That is not just figure skating related phenomenon, you can relate to it using different, even proved by science examples.
I see. That all makes sense, actually.


And there probably is the thing that - Well, if I'm looking at a Russian minor age figure skating tournament with 350 female skaters, 1 or 2 of them might stand out to me as special talents. If there are 10-20 times as many female skaters, there will be 10-20 times more female skaters who you could consider a special talent(The vast, vast majority of these minor age skaters really aren't all that great). So the ones who end up becoming significant names for ladies are such special talents, each one of them. Whereas for men the pool isn't nearly large enough. You might get one in a blue moon, maybe. Ah, and even those 350 participants will all be at least somewhat good. There's a lot of competition even left outside of that for the ladies. Whereas I'm sure they'd accept just about any male skaters to have 7 participants instead of 6 for a category, for example.
 

andromache

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
I am not sure girls necessarily have better SS - especially not Eteri's girls, her group doesn't seem to be very interested in developing that aspect of skating. Their approach to transitions is quantity over quality. Someone like Tarakanova with good SS came to Eteri that way.

The difference in SS between the genders comes down to comparing who is at the top of each discipline.

There are very few standouts in SS in the ladies - Carolina is the exception, and hers aren't what they used to be. Everyone else has many strengths and weaknesses in terms of SS - some are clearly better than others, but no one is earth-shatteringly good. If you have above-average SS, you'll fit right in with the top ladies. Even mediocre SS don't look that bad.

Meanwhile, the men have some A+++ skaters. Patrick, duh, who sort of influenced all the top men who came after him - Yuzu, Javi, and Shoma (I'll throw Jason Brown in here too) all have outstanding SS, so being above-average (Nathan, sometimes and Kolyada always) is okay, but being mediocre is a real detriment.

Girls aren't really naturally more flexible than boys - the difference in flexibility only really come with puberty. Pre-puberty, boys can be almost as flexible as girls if they work at it, the only difference being their pelvis shape (which really isn't that different pre-puberty anyway).
 

vorravorra

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 9, 2016
I sometimes get a feeling different people mean different things by SS considering some polar opposite assessments, but this isn't really relevant here.

Girls definitely work more on flexibility, they all were expected to a do a Biellmann until very recently but it was never a requirement for boys. Girls work more on the choreographic side of skating too, on average, but this depends on the group and coach - some make all their students work equally hard on this. It is true that boys take longer to mature. But do boys who have bad spins really often go to great spins or have good spinners have always been good spinners? And ditto from bad SS to great SS? I am not sure it's a matter of age.
 

Shayuki

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Joined
Nov 2, 2013
There are very few standouts in SS in the ladies - Carolina is the exception, and hers aren't what they used to be. Everyone else has many strengths and weaknesses in terms of SS - some are clearly better than others, but no one is earth-shatteringly good. If you have above-average SS, you'll fit right in with the top ladies. Even mediocre SS don't look that bad.

Meanwhile, the men have some A+++ skaters. Patrick, duh, who sort of influenced all the top men who came after him - Yuzu, Javi, and Shoma (I'll throw Jason Brown in here too) all have outstanding SS, so being above-average (Nathan, sometimes and Kolyada always) is okay, but being mediocre is a real detriment.
Also a good point. Patrick Chan really brought some special skating skills to the Men's discipline. There really is no one like that for ladies right now. Actually, no one is even close. That's partly why I consider it a somewhat meh age right now, at least for the seniors.

The only Russian ladies' skater in the pipeline I'm completely confident in grading a S tier skating skill in talent is Melkumova. Dzepka's grading depends on her step sequences this weekend but she's likely S too. Both are born in 2009. Until then, I don't think anyone's looking like an S tier skating skill prospect. Tarakanova, Berestovskaya, Samodelkina etc. are a clear step below that.
 

vorravorra

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 9, 2016
Also a good point. Patrick Chan really brought some special skating skills to the Men's discipline. There really is no one like that for ladies right now. Actually, no one is even close. That's partly why I consider it a somewhat meh age right now, at least for the seniors.

The only Russian ladies' skater in the pipeline I'm completely confident in grading a S tier skating skill in talent is Melkumova. Dzepka's grading depends on her step sequences this weekend but she's likely S too. Both are born in 2009. Until then, I don't think anyone's looking like an S tier skating skill prospect. Tarakanova, Berestovskaya, Samodelkina etc. are a clear step below that.
What is an S tier skating skill? I assume something good.
 

andromache

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Keeping in mind that this is just talent - it's not at that point yet. But it is what it is. Above A.

Step Sequence at 8 years of age:
https://streamable.com/7af6b

Whoaaaa very impressive.

I'd love to see someone like this continue developing and really be able to bring Patrick Chan SS to the ladies discipline. One or more of Eteri's girls who excels in SS will have to go for quality above quantity.
 

Li'Kitsu

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
I am not sure girls necessarily have better SS - especially not Eteri's girls, her group doesn't seem to be very interested in developing that aspect of skating. Their approach to transitions is quantity over quality. Someone like Tarakanova with good SS came to Eteri that way.

Which group would be interested in developing it then?
I don't have the knowledge about as many Russian skaters & schools as many others here have, but at least from what I can see, I don't think any specific team right now is having such a clear focus on strong SS, or contrary to that no focus on it at all. It's more about the specific skaters - and that IMO is definitely true for Eteris camp. She does have girls with "weaker"/average SS, but she also has some with really good ones. And while yes, Tarakanova (& Kostornaya) already came to her with very good SS, it's a bit different for Polina Tsurskaya. To me, she is ridiculously underrated when it comes to her basic skating skills, which are very, very strong (for what it's worth, Jackie Wong commented about it on twitter during his SA live visit). And she had strong SS when she came to Eteri already, but they have clearly improved a lot in the latest seasons - which I doubt could have happened had they not worked on it.
Generally, I agree that Team Eteri seems to have a strong focus on including a huge number of transitions as their 'main strategy' (and if we like it or not, it's a smart strategy, as TR is being double rewarded right now - in PCS & in GOE). But I don't think that excludes working on SS as well. For another example, look at how much Evgenia has improved now compared to her senior debut season. The difference between her 2015 GPF & 2017 WC performances was quite impressive for me.
 

SnowWhite

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 30, 2016
Country
Canada
How many quads does Stephen Gogolev have? He's turning 13 in a few days.

In competition he's been landing the 4S for a couple of years now (he got it when he was 10), along with 3As. He's done 4T in comp as well this season. In practice he's landed every quad except the 4A (I think he might have tried that too?? Not sure). Brian Orser calls him his "quad lutz kid".

Whoaaaa very impressive.

I'd love to see someone like this continue developing and really be able to bring Patrick Chan SS to the ladies discipline. One or more of Eteri's girls who excels in SS will have to go for quality above quantity.

I don't know if we'll see any of the get to Patrick level. Didn't he spend a lot of time training figures in his early development because his coach was old school? Unfortunately the focus isn't put into that anymore. Though maybe skaters who do ice dance and singles as they come up the levels (quite common in Canada) will get some benefit from that.
 

Shayuki

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Whoaaaa very impressive.

I'd love to see someone like this continue developing and really be able to bring Patrick Chan SS to the ladies discipline. One or more of Eteri's girls who excels in SS will have to go for quality above quantity.
Unfortunately, I doubt Eteri's girls would truly focus on skating skills. As has been shown, you can get really high skating skill marks as well as high GOE lvl 4 step sequences without any significant SS to speak of. I wish step sequence requirements would be upped so that you can't just get lvl 4 steps for simply showing up. It's just not smart to focus on it if you want to be efficient, even though amazing skating skills truly are a sight to behold. This girl though, who knows. She has nearly 5 years until she's junior eligible and then we'll see where she's at and whether she even is relevant. Proper coaching will be very important.


I like how Tuktamysheva articulates her thoughts. She has such a fantastic personality. You'd wish that she wasn't in such a competitive environment as she could be a star in a different situation.

In competition he's been landing the 4S for a couple of years now (he got it when he was 10), along with 3As. He's done 4T in comp as well this season. In practice he's landed every quad except the 4A (I think he might have tried that too?? Not sure). Brian Orser calls him his "quad lutz kid".
Well of course, I probably shouldn't talk about male prospects when I have no idea about them. Looking forward to seeing him in juniors next season.
 

atsumiri

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 22, 2015
Unfortunately, I doubt Eteri's girls would truly focus on skating skills. As has been shown, you can get really high skating skill marks as well as high GOE lvl 4 step sequences without any significant SS to speak of. I wish step sequence requirements would be upped so that you can't just get lvl 4 steps for simply showing up. It's just not smart to focus on it if you want to be efficient, even though amazing skating skills truly are a sight to behold. This girl though, who knows. She has nearly 5 years until she's junior eligible and then we'll see where she's at and whether she even is relevant. Proper coaching will be very important.
The problem is you think someone having an amazing SS. Other people see just average... or even below average SS.
There're a lot of aspects in skating. You're looking/prefer one aspects... other looking for others.. It's why this sport is subjective
You're blaming that someone has bad/good SS... Others will never agree with you..
 
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