2017-18 State of Russian Ladies skating

atsumiri said:

The problem is you think someone having an amazing SS. Other people see just average... or even below average SS.
There're a lot of aspects in skating. You're looking/prefer one aspects... other looking for others.. It's why this sport is subjective
You're blaming that someone has bad/good SS... Others will never agree with you..

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Idk, I think Eteri’s girls just skate for points, not as much for SS and artistry etc...

AshWagsFan said:

Idk, I think Eteri’s girls just skate for points, not as much for SS and artistry etc...

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I think you’re just missing it honestly...I certainly see it and I grew up watching Sasha Cohen. They are not the same but I see emotion and passion come thru each and every one of them. They're all so different from each other though and each excel in different aspects. Of course they skate for points and it’s working but read the interviews and understand what each one is portraying. They love talking about their programs. Tarakanova for example says her free skate is like going to church for her and the passion she has for the music seems apparent to me.

I’m not a huge Zhenya fan but I respect her and truly believe people downplay her SS. She’s very light and uses them to glue her programs together as seamlessly as anyone else. She’s no Kostner but that’s alright. They can both achieve the same score in completely different ways. Nothing unusual about that and the diversity really benefits the fans who get to see a wider range of performance.

Shayuki said:

Why is it, though? I mean, we look at Alexandra Trusova - She gets full levels on all the elements and ... well, is somewhat lacking in skating skills and presentation but not absolutely dreadful. She has more quads than any 13-year-old boy will likely ever have. We look at Anna Shcherbakova - She gets full levels on all the elements and also has a quad and her presentation skills are something else. Why can these girls do this? The quad thing hardly works as an excuse considering they also have been practicing it, and actually have it(Or Shcherbakova had it, hopefully she regains it).

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OK but you don't forget these incredible talented girls are before puberty. We don't know but there is chance that they will lose their quads. They are so tiny, lighwaight now they can rotate very fast.

atsumiri said:

The problem is you think someone having an amazing SS. Other people see just average... or even below average SS.
There're a lot of aspects in skating. You're looking/prefer one aspects... other looking for others.. It's why this sport is subjective
You're blaming that someone has bad/good SS... Others will never agree with you..

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Well... Maybe. But lookie here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qisb3TFCiE0&t=46s until 1:13

Anyone for ladies close to this?

I don't really think this can be an opinion in that sense...

Shayuki said:

I don't really think this can be an opinion in that sense...

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it can.

atsumiri said:

it can.

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So you do think someone for ladies is close to that level? Who did you have in mind?

Shayuki said:

So you do think someone for ladies is close to that level? Who did you have in mind?

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I'm far away from the idea to compare man and ladies.
It's pointless.
About men. I don't find Patrick's SS is the best in the field to bring him everywhere.

atsumiri said:

The problem is you think someone having an amazing SS. Other people see just average... or even below average SS.
There're a lot of aspects in skating. You're looking/prefer one aspects... other looking for others.. It's why this sport is subjective
You're blaming that someone has bad/good SS... Others will never agree with you..

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That's true. Caro in the eyes of some people has SS light years ahead of others. The same people name Maria S' skating juniorish. I do see some difference but not that big difference speaking about this year programs. And I think Kostornaya's SS are just superb.

I rewatched Alina's GPF SP. What a treat for the eye her first part before the jumping starts! Whoever says it's all just for points, that she rushes through everything are imo either biased or myopic. Wonderful program. But again before the jumps. Then, yes, an athletic exercise.

atsumiri said:

About men. I don't find Patrick's SS is the best in the field to bring him everywhere.

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we're the minority my friend


very happy about Zhenya's desicion! I was pretty worried

[email protected] said:

I rewatched Alina's GPF SP. What a treat for the eye her first part before the jumping starts! Whoever says it's all just for points, that she rushes through everything are imo either biased or myopic. Wonderful program. But again before the jumps. Then, yes, an athletic exercise.

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I love that step sequence to the music of Moonlight. It’s such a dream like sequence.

[email protected] said:

I rewatched Alina's GPF SP. What a treat for the eye her first part before the jumping starts! Whoever says it's all just for points, that she rushes through everything are imo either biased or myopic. Wonderful program. But again before the jumps. Then, yes, an athletic exercise.

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It was pretty good. I still think her best SP was the one in a training outfit before the season started. Hopefully she can deliver at that level(or better) by the end of this season.

Shayuki said:

It was pretty good. I still think her best SP was the one in a training outfit before the season started. Hopefully she can deliver at that level(or better) by the end of this season.

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From the test skate, you mean?

madison said:

From the test skate, you mean?

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Exactly yes.

[email protected] said:

I rewatched Alina's GPF SP. What a treat for the eye her first part before the jumping starts! Whoever says it's all just for points, that she rushes through everything are imo either biased or myopic. Wonderful program. But again before the jumps. Then, yes, an athletic exercise.

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I agree. It was so much better than in the 1st half of the season. Every movement matched accent of the music and very creative. I was surprised how much I enjoyed it and it will only get better as season goes on.

[email protected] said:

That's true. Caro in the eyes of some people has SS light years ahead of others. The same people name Maria S' skating juniorish. I do see some difference but not that big difference speaking about this year programs. And I think Kostornaya's SS are just superb.

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More like Sochi-Caro has SS light years ahead of any of these current top ladies. Caro this season is significantly slower with less complicated footwork.

As for Maria Sotskova, when compared to a true junior, let's say Alena Kostornaia since you've mentioned her, Maria has significantly less transitions and ice coverage and way more crossovers / two-footed skating in her program.

When watching their performance in the (Junior) Grand Prix Final, what I noticed was Alena uses occasional crossovers to gain speed and most of her performance was completed by one-footed skating with decent speed and fluidity. The entries and exits to her elements tend to be packed with transitions. (Example here)

Maria, on the other hand, has a skating dominated by crossovers and adds in one-footed skating and turns occasionally. Given the footwork is simpler, her speed is comparable to that of Alena. Note her crossovers after technical elements: Alena requires no more than three crossovers (Example here) to regain speed while Maria often requires 5-6.(Example here) Also, the entries and exits of her elements are mostly crossovers. (Example here) It is very obvious that she has skating skills inferior to that of Alena Kostornaia, a true junior, so I would rather not call Maria's skating "juniorish" as that would be an insult to what the top junior ladies have shown us what they are capable of.

Undoubtedly, Maria Sotskova has improved her skating skills from last season, which (in her FS) started off with posing around the logo for 15s, crossover around the rink for 15s, jump, more crossovers, repeat. However, she still has a lot of room for improvement.

ETA: I've never compared the performance by these two ladies side-by-side. The comparison is striking. Alena scored 0.61 points more than Maria in TES in (J)GPF, despite having one less element (ChSq), and she is clearly superior in SS, TR, PE and IN. The Russian Fed better have a good reason if Alena does not get a score she deserves in the Russian Nationals this coming week.

Skating skills might be subjective to a certain extent (some fans may value speed over edge quality or vice versa, for example), but, c'mon, you also have to be realistic. Patrick Chan has the all-around best skating skills in the current men's field. You can find them to be overrated or over-rewarded or overvalued, but there is no one better. (Hanyu comes closest.)

It'd be nice to see Eteri's girls receive more differentiated scores for their skating skills. Kosternaia should be receiving at least a point or two more than Trusova in their totaled SS scores, for example.

ETA: And let's remember that skating skills don't equal transitions, as many of the above posts seem to be forgetting. You can have a ton of transitions but still demonstrate weaker/less impressive skating skills than someone else (Trusova, for example, has more transitions than any non-Eteri girls, but probably weak skating skills than many.)

IMO among Eteri girls who compete internationally, Medvedeva, Kostornaia and Tarakanova have the best SS. I agree that piling up TR does not automatically mean good SS, but lacking TR does reflect incompetence in SS. If Sotskova could pack her program with TR she definitely would, but the reality is, she does not have the control, speed and edge quality to do so. An opposite example would be Zagitova. Her first half of program is definitely packed with TR, but she lacks speed, fluidity and ice coverage when executing the programmed intricate footwork. It was painful for her to get through the first half, and it was painful for me to watch her pull her way through.

andromache said:

ETA: And let's remember that skating skills don't equal transitions, as many of the above posts seem to be forgetting. You can have a ton of transitions but still demonstrate weaker/less impressive skating skills than someone else (Trusova, for example, has more transitions than any non-Eteri girls, but probably weak skating skills than many.)

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But I think you are forgetting that Eteri’s girls use incredibly difficult skating skills to execute their transitions. So those little walleys and counters they are using as part of transitions count toward skating skills also. Trusova doesn’t have poor skating skills or anything ... she’s still got excellent ability. In her SP for example she executed amazing SS, TR, Interpretation of Music, and Performance often at the exact same time. For example watch one whole minute from 1:15-2:15 to see what I mean.....I have time stamped here.

https://youtu.be/RzPudHrgCSE?t=1m15s

Tons of difficult and purposeful skating and interpretation. She’s light on her feet and executes effortless twizzles, loopturns and hops. Note how easily she accelerated from the StSeq into her transition into the 3f-3lo. I mean she went from the end of her StSeq to blistering speed in like four pulls and even threw a couple 3 turns in while accelerating. After the 3f-3lo she lands right in character and executes a one footed transition that also adds to the Int and Choreography. The best is yet to come in my opinion. After a few crossovers she uses the power and momentum she built to hurl herself into a cantilever at near full speed and then gets up and into a few brief but well poised steps into a 3z. All while maintaining the speed too! She tops it off by landing the 3z in character and completes the transition from big spender to jumping jack. The entire time she was attacking all aspects of PCS at almost ever moment.

Well, I at least have never felt real interpretation in Trusova's skating, though I guess that can be subjective to a degree. Purely choreo'd expression of music not performed with full conviction... I guess counts but I at least can't feel it. That's more a credit to the choreographer.