2017-2018 State of Russian Ice Dance | Golden Skate

2017-2018 State of Russian Ice Dance

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
One year ago on this date I started the last seasons Russian ice dance thread and that thread is all warning signs to disaster and now Russia has only two spots for Pyeongchang. so for the first time ever Russia doesn't doesn't have maximum spots and Russia didn't medal at the previous years worlds. So sad. Is this thread obituary?

So bobrova soloviev trying to rescue career with radu poklitaru
https://translate.googleusercontent...4.html&usg=ALkJrhgLSCsZ9rzNJOFEh_wjVLzT5uuzpw


Katsalapov trying to rescue career with reunion with Zhulin
http://m.rsport.ru/figure_skating/20170426/1119631578.html
 
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Mattieu

Medalist
Joined
Dec 22, 2010
So bobrova soloviev trying to rescue career with radu poklitaru

Katsalapov trying to rescue career with reunion with Zhulin

Zhulin trashing Z/G in the process :reye:

I/Z is a big question mark :sad4:

S/B struggling to make the top 10 in Worlds :slink:

Whoever would've thought it could get this bad? :eeking:
 
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gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Zhulin trashing Z/G in the process :reye:

I/Z is a big question mark :sad4:

S/B struggling to make the top 10 in Worlds :slink:

Whoever would've thought it could get this bad? :eeking:

It's so bad! You read articles about b/s winning Olympic medal and they were 8th in SD and no one has been hired to fix their levels! They have this new choreographer but no level person.

S/b a hope for the future was 10th. And that's it. They only had two spots.

I/z and S/k. You saw how both teams performed.

Is anyone in Russian ice dance willing to totally embrace IJS and do what's necessary to win things like worlds and Olympics again? Or is that over and they are no longer interested in winning things like worlds or Olympics?
 

coldblueeyes

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Country
Brazil
Well, if B/S have the Averbukh seal of approval (lol), then maybe they are doing this thing right. Also, doomsday profecies have already started by our in-house specialist. Things are just like they were yesterday, for anyone wondering.

Also, nothing to cry about Z/G, they have underperformed a lot in the past, and haven't managed to break the top4 in Russia, so nothing for them to do outside.
 

bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Through blogs we've also learned that I/Z struggled this whole season it appears with serious injury and illnesses. They just chose to not disclose. They may or may not be a factor this season. In my heart of hearts I wished they changed federations as the experts seem to hang all their hopes on B/S, S/B and S/K. And yes skating ability and ability to conform to current rules of iD don't seem to factor as much as they should.
 

Ares

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Country
Poland
It's so bad! You read articles about b/s winning Olympic medal and they were 8th in SD and no one has been hired to fix their levels! They have this new choreographer but no level person.

S/b a hope for the future was 10th. And that's it. They only had two spots.

I/z and S/k. You saw how both teams performed.

Is anyone in Russian ice dance willing to totally embrace IJS and do what's necessary to win things like worlds and Olympics again? Or is that over and they are no longer interested in winning things like worlds or Olympics?

I think it's stupid to believe that Bobrova / Solovyov & Zhulin have no clue about levels. They know & work on it but just keep making smaller or bigger errors for which they get dinged.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
I think it's stupid to believe that Bobrova / Solovyov & Zhulin have no clue about levels. They know & work on it but just keep making smaller or bigger errors for which they get dinged.

But do they know best ways to prevent and minimize errors
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
Russia seems to have been in denial with the IJS when it comes to Ice Dance like the US has been in Ladies singles. Only in the last few years have US coaches seemed to finally accept the IJS and get out of their 6.0 mentality but it will take time to really see the results. Russia seems to still be living in the 90's when it comes to Ice Dance.
 
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gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
They don't grasp that they can't do 6.0 programs anymore! The IJS has rules! PCS has criteria. They really underrate composition and transitions. They really underrate power of technical panels. Look at how many times Russian teams debut with level one lifts or step sequences or twizzles. Everyone in Russian federation just called stepanova and Bukin sit twizzles level 4 but they were not! So they had to change them when they got level 1. How many times was a step sequence 1 or 2? Too many too count. The teams were sent out with level 1 step sequences because technical "specialists" in Russia call all elements level 3 or 4 regardless of what the criteria says. They know this too which is why They import Sylvia Novak or Halina Gordon for nationals. She can only do so much though.

Everyone will see Loboda and Drozd go senior next year and they will be hit with tons of level 1 and 2 after everyone in Russia called them level 3 and 4 and you will see another junior to senior transition go totally haywire and they will spend most of the season trying to raise their levels!
 
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bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
They don't grasp that they can't do 6.0 programs anymore! The IJS has rules! PCS has criteria. They really underrate composition and transitions. They really underrate the power of technical panels. Look at how many times Russian teams debut with level one lifts or step sequences or twizzles. Everyone in Russian federation just called Stepanova and Bukin sit twizzles level 4 but they were not! So they had to change them when they got level 1. How many times was a step sequence 1 or 2? Too many to count. The teams were sent out with level 1 step sequences because technical "specialists" in Russia call all elements level 3 or 4 regardless of what the criteria say. They know this too which is why They import Sylvia Novak or Halina Gordon for nationals. She can only do so much though.

Everyone will see Loboda and Drozd go senior next year and they will be hit with tons of level 1 and 2 after everyone in Russia called them level 3 and 4 and you will see another junior to senior transition go totally haywire and they will spend most of the season trying to raise their levels!

The last person who had a clue as to how to groom a Russian pair using current ID rules was Morozov. He's chosen to work instead with Weaver and Poje. That speaks volumes.
 

Sweet Dream

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 16, 2014
The last person who had a clue as to how to groom a Russian pair using current ID rules was Morozov. He's chosen to work instead with Weaver and Poje. That speaks volumes.

Unfortunately as a coach his morals are not good enough.
 

nocturnalis

Medalist
Joined
Jul 2, 2014
Imo, someone needs to Eteri to talk to them about levels. As a former ice dancer, she could at least tell them that the CoP has changed.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
The last person who had a clue as to how to groom a Russian pair using current ID rules was Morozov. He's chosen to work instead with Weaver and Poje. That speaks volumes.

Absolutely! No one can bear working with Russian teams or Russian federation unless they live in russia

Imo, someone needs to Eteri to talk to them about levels. As a former ice dancer, she could at least tell them that the CoP has changed.

This is true! People talk about Zhulin coaching n/k to gold in 2006 but look at the levels of elements his team won with! Look at all the levels at that time. The whole system was radically different! Winning under 2006 cop might as well be winning under 6.0. Radical radical changes aince.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
IMO, S/K shut their doors when they finished 10th at Euros. It was already half-shut mid-way through the season but that finish did it for them. I truly doubt the success of this whole coaching change with Zhulin. Zhulin may be a good technician, and that may help them in a way but overall, I've never been a fan of any of his visions.

If I were the Russian Fed, I'd put my money on teams like Stepanova/Bukin and Zahorski/Guerriero who have lasting power. These two teams, in particular, I see could do far better with Marie-France and Patrice. If S/B have a language barrier problem, another option they could consider would be Krylova. There, they'd be top priority straight away. These two teams need to get away from traditional Russian coaching. They have the modern flare and potential. They're gonna rot if they stay in Russia.

You are totally right! I don't think that any Russia based coach is good for any dance team. I posted a list of how many European dance teams train in North America and it's because people are going to where the success is! These teams are from countries like Turkey, Denmark and Czech Republic! Russia can afford it. And you are right language shouldn't be a problem at all! Even Russian coaches know to be successful you coach in North America.

I don't see Stepanova & Bukin as a Marie-France style team. S&B are best when they skate dynamic & youthful programs, showing off tricky steps & maneuvers. The young teams with Dubreil & Lauzon are all packaged the same as the older teams with lyrical music, similar-looking step sequences, and an emphasis on a soft, romantic relationship. All things that would strip away the uniqueness of S&B as a team, IMO. They would gain flow & power, but IMO not worth the cost for a team with so much natural dynamism.

Zahorsky & Guerreiro, maybe. They are still developing and don't have a specific "look" yet as far as I can tell.

So if they don't have a look they should just move to North America and adopt the look that is winning! Same thing for Stepanova and Bukin. Ice dance always demands teams have different styles of dances anyway and all teams in a collapsing program should adopt the winning style if they want to be successful!

Zhulin isn't a good technician. Volkov was. And Volkov ran away. The other technical coach (Denis can't remember his name) left a year or so ago because he couldn't work with the other coach at Zhulin's rink, the one you saw on TV all season long.
IMO all teams got hurt in the process because Denis & Volkov were the TES magicians, who understood levels and so on.

And I do agree about you other statement. Stepanova&Bukin & Zahorski&Guerreiro are wasted on their current coaching situation. I wonder why the fed isn't able to build a team of coach that do work. They do have the TES specialists, they do have great packaging manager (Platov is one that is not used at the moment, Morozov at his best etc.). But they don't have ONE working team with it all.
Add to that IMO Russians ice dancers at the moment lack the personality, it shows on the ice and it's not setting them apart at all. Stepanova has to work on her basics because at the moment, she's one of the worst ice dancer on the plateau.

They need to adopt the personalities that are winning.
 

irriya

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 31, 2016
Zhulin trashing Z/G in the process :reye:

I/Z is a big question mark :sad4:

S/B struggling to make the top 10 in Worlds :slink:

Whoever would've thought it could get this bad? :eeking:

Yes. I can't believe that Russia get only 2 spots for ice dance. I mean, it's great to see so many great American/Canadian ice dance teams, but you miss something if you don't have Russian ice dancers. Have to say now the top teams are all so similar styles. They are great, but you want different styles for ice dance.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
They don't grasp that they can't do 6.0 programs anymore! The IJS has rules! PCS has criteria. They really underrate composition and transitions. They really underrate power of technical panels. Look at how many times Russian teams debut with level one lifts or step sequences or twizzles. Everyone in Russian federation just called stepanova and Bukin sit twizzles level 4 but they were not! So they had to change them when they got level 1. How many times was a step sequence 1 or 2? Too many too count. The teams were sent out with level 1 step sequences because technical "specialists" in Russia call all elements level 3 or 4 regardless of what the criteria says. They know this too which is why They import Sylvia Novak or Halina Gordon for nationals. She can only do so much though.

Everyone will see Loboda and Drozd go senior next year and they will be hit with tons of level 1 and 2 after everyone in Russia called them level 3 and 4 and you will see another junior to senior transition go totally haywire and they will spend most of the season trying to raise their levels!

Haven't they known this for years though? Years in which N/K and D/S both became World Champions?

I do agree that the tech specialists/judges in Russia coddle them and award them levels, only to have them totally marked down internationally. Also, ice dancing is shifting where technique and contemporary themes are awarded more than classical pieces/dramatics which have usually favoured the Russians in ice dancing.

I kinda want B/S to get their bronze and move on, so S/B can start really shining - they have such star quality and I wish the fed would put greater stock in them... they're progressing so well, even being the putative Russian #2. But obviously things won't change until after 2018 and B/S is Russia's best hope for a medal - but they'll be pressed to get it --- I/K came on strong before Sochi to pull away from P/B, W/P, C/L and get bronze, but I'm not sure if Russia can do the same with the strength of the American teams, and P/C and V/M essentially monopolizing the top 2 spots on the podium. Who knows, they were only 1 point from World bronze against the Shibs and would have surely had it if they had better SD levels. I'm expecting monstrously high scores for B/S at Euros - and they might even challenge the French, so that come the Olympics they've got high enough PCS to keep them in the medal mix.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Haven't they known this for years though? Years in which N/K and D/S both became World Champions?

I do agree that the tech specialists/judges in Russia coddle them and award them levels, only to have them totally marked down internationally. Also, ice dancing is shifting where technique and contemporary themes are awarded more than classical pieces/dramatics which have usually favoured the Russians in ice dancing.

I kinda want B/S to get their bronze and move on, so S/B can start really shining - they have such star quality and I wish the fed would put greater stock in them... they're progressing so well, even being the putative Russian #2. But obviously things won't change until after 2018 and B/S is Russia's best hope for a medal - but they'll be pressed to get it --- I/K came on strong before Sochi to pull away from P/B, W/P, C/L and get bronze, but I'm not sure if Russia can do the same with the strength of the American teams, and P/C and V/M essentially monopolizing the top 2 spots on the podium. Who knows, they were only 1 point from World bronze against the Shibs and would have surely had it if they had better SD levels. I'm expecting monstrously high scores for B/S at Euros - and they might even challenge the French, so that come the Olympics they've got high enough PCS to keep them in the medal mix.

It's clear after D/S won worlds and then their GP absence the culture change in ice dance accelerated dramatically so no team for years challenged either d/w or v/m but Russia didnt do anything to respond to this culture change. I read tons of posts about how no one liked d/s worlds win then when they came back barely won bronze over b/a! People can blame shabalins injury and aboriginal program but you could see in gp of 2009-2010 radical change in ice dance. You also saw collapse of khokhlova novitski too. Delobel and shoemfelder also were swept aside. Again injury and absence contributed.

Remember euro judges rejected bobrova and soloviev too! They didn't just lose to p/c but also c/l. 8th and 10th told the story! There aren't enough judges who like Russia anymore. They need to become North American like p/c became North American.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
It's clear after D/S won worlds and then their GP absence the culture change in ice dance accelerated dramatically so no team for years challenged either d/w or v/m but Russia didnt do anything to respond to this culture change. I read tons of posts about how no one liked d/s worlds win then when they came back barely won bronze over b/a! People can blame shabalins injury and aboriginal program but you could see in gp of 2009-2010 radical change in ice dance. You also saw collapse of khokhlova novitski too. Delobel and shoemfelder also were swept aside. Again injury and absence contributed.

Remember euro judges rejected bobrova and soloviev too! They didn't just lose to p/c but also c/l. 8th and 10th told the story! There aren't enough judges who like Russia anymore. They need to become North American like p/c became North American.

Uh, they sure liked them at Worlds when they put them 3rd in the FD, and just a hair off the podium.
 
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