2017-2018 State of Russian Ice Dance

gmyers said:

That’s clearly true!!

Morozova/Bagin won the senior dance Russian cup final. I say they have Great future and will be the “it” team very soon.

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They're not terrible, if you don't expect much of them. Still pretty rough around the edges, and they look like they are dragging each other across the ice - but then, they've been together since June. Maybe in some years they can fight for the top in Russia? Who knows...

Hopefully this post will elicit some thoughtful responses, not the nonsensical bile that a couple of posters have been spouting for the last couple of weeks:

Where does Russian ice dance go now? It sounds very much like B/S won't be at Worlds, with lots of comments from Katia in particular around it being her last performance, and a nice interview saying she wants a family. So I doubt there is any shot at 3 spots for next season, which would make 4 years in a row - a thing that would have been unthinkable 5 years ago. What needs to change to get Russia back on top?

a) Coaching: I think power has become concentrated too much in the hands of 3 coaching camps, and while they all have positive elements, they all also have big deficiencies. Zhulin needs to get a technical specialist back with Volkov gone. Waaay too many level 2 & 3s from his teams this season. His choreo is broadly good, although you can clearly see when a team has inspired him, and when he's phoning it in a bit. On the other hand, Kustarova needs to choreographic and packaging help more than anything else. But overall, I'd like to see some new blood with new ideas coming through, or at the very least, a more open approach to working with other specialists. The one program I really enjoyed from a Russian team in the last 4 years, I/Z's Carmen, was choreographed by an "outsider". There needs to be more of this.

b) Partnerships: The great partnerswap of 4 years ago clearly is behind a lot of the problems now. But you can't force people to skate with someone that they don't want to work with. But at the same time, Russia currently has a lot of mismatched teams, where one skater is a lot stronger than the other: Bukin, Katsalapov and Drozd still outshine the women in their teams, and meanwhile Ilinykh and Riazonova, both with good SS and performance ability & neither of whom wanted to finish competing, don't have partners (Plus Yanovskaya, a much stronger skater than Popova, had to move abroad to find a new partner). How can the federation do more for the next generation to make sure that the best possible partnerships emerge at the start and stay together? If Soloviev is going to try to continue, is it worth splitting an existing partnership? I'm not sure, as it's very very difficult for a new dance team to get results straight away - if he's only going to be in it for another 4 years I doubt there'd be enough time to turn that team into world beaters. But at the same time, it would be a shame to lose his experience as a very solid competitor who has delivered many times for his country, if he wants to keep skating.

c) Development: Should the attention just turn to bringing through the junior teams? There are several promising ones, although no one to take your breath away in the way I/K did in 2010. My other concern with the juniors is that they stay junior for too long, and it gives a false idea of how they'd do turning senior. L/D I think would have learned more by going senior last year, and then could have positioned themselves for a shot at the Euros team this year. But instead they played it safe, kept competing in the weaker junior field, and we've since really seen Alla's skills in particular regress. There are a bunch of teams who have done 3 or more JGP seasons, staying junior until the male partner is on the cusp of aging out, but if you look at who has been winning championship medals, it's the teams that turned senior quickly (age 18/19 at the very latest) that have had the most success.

uhh said:

whole post

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a) If they have the money, some should go train elsewhere because this is how you learn. You can always come back anyway but you'll never forget the best you can do with both structures. And I think new coaches, younger ones should step up. I was never a fan of Elena's OTT programs and attitude in them because it was too much, but if Yulia L. was always very soft and composed on the ice. She never forced anything it was great to watch. If only she knew how to choreograph Dance programs ! Otherwise money should be used for outside choreographers : not necessarily from Russia, not necessarily figure skating choreographers.

b) You say there are a lot of mismatch teams, I'd say you need patience because you better have a mismatech team that works well and develop than to swap parters again and again. Not everybody can have success overnight, and even putting 2 strong people together doesn't work. Exhibit A : Elena & Nikita.
Stepanova/Bukin work very well and absolutely need to stay together because World podiums are calling. Loboda/Drozd need a complete packaging change and refinement. Sinitsina is very good and S/K needs to sort out their behaviour issues, not the skating.

c)Attention should already be on junior teams, S/S are the most promising by far but are going through injuries, it happens. And they have to stay in juniors because they'll have no chances in seniors and might go very low in the seniro ranks. And since there is always this "wait your turn" policy, it's not looking good.

I'll have to add that there is no exceptionnal talent every single year. You cannot find 2 I/K's per season, so they spoiled you (and me) but that are rare cases.

Also Stepanova/Bukin have grabbed pretty incredible opportunities : managed to go to Worlds 2015 (3 spots), Worlds 2016 after B/S meldonium case, and overtaking S/K for Worlds 2017. They were a no-drama team, and somehow what looked like Russia's biggest chance for a medal in Beijing 2022 might just vanished if he doesn't sort out his case ASAP. He's been banned once, if the Russian fed doesn't get insurance that it won't happen again, they'll let them go, because there won't be no point in supporting them.

Anyasnake said:

b) You say there are a lot of mismatch teams, I'd say you need patience because you better have a mismatech team that works well and develop than to swap parters again and again. Not everybody can have success overnight, and even putting 2 strong people together doesn't work. Exhibit A : Elena & Nikita.
Stepanova/Bukin work very well and absolutely need to stay together because World podiums are calling. Loboda/Drozd need a complete packaging change and refinement. Sinitsina is very good and S/K needs to sort out their behaviour issues, not the skating.

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Many of the mismatch teams I mentioned have been together for a long time, and they still haven't got on par. S/B could maybe get world medals, but it will be a tough tough ask against the US & Canadian teams and P/C - and her lack of good basics puts them at an automatic disadvantage. I know you can't have success overnight - I think the solution has to be getting the pairings right in juniors.

Anyasnake said:

I'll have to add that there is no exceptionnal talent every single year. You cannot find 2 I/K's per season, so they spoiled you (and me) but that are rare cases.

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I agree you can't expect exceptional pairings every year, but I don't think there have been breathtaking juniors, or even ones that I have confidence could compete well in the senior ranks, since about 2012 with S/Z. That's a worrying drought.

Anyasnake said:

Also Stepanova/Bukin have grabbed pretty incredible opportunities : managed to go to Worlds 2015 (3 spots), Worlds 2016 after B/S meldonium case, and overtaking S/K for Worlds 2017. They were a no-drama team, and somehow what looked like Russia's biggest chance for a medal in Beijing 2022 might just vanished if he doesn't sort out his case ASAP. He's been banned once, if the Russian fed doesn't get insurance that it won't happen again, they'll let them go, because there won't be no point in supporting them.

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S/B have done well, but they've also had a lot of lucky breaks where other teams took themselves out of the race. Seeing how they respond to him missing the Olympics will be the first big test.

I'm interested in seeing how Gorshkov and Liapina do with their teams going to seniors - Ushakova/Nekrasov and Polischuk/Vakhnov. Both teams are very interesting to me, and they look like they could become good bets for Russia. And Shevchenko/Eremenko had fantastic programs this year, but once again, Zhuk and Svinin cannot get a team to actually get good levels in their step sequences, which is a problem for S/S and even S/B.

I thought Ksenia Rumiantseva, Ekaterina Volobueva might be something! Then L/D had that Chicago program and Loboda Stepanova-ness came the dominant aspect of the team! It was so sad! In Russia popova mozgov considered better than l/d. They are also coached by r/v so also had the good program!

Stepanova was actually below the radar and improving but if Russia starts telling everyone to make them world medalists or world champions they will take a devastating hit because no one with her lack of skating skills is going anywhere near a world podium. They have been 9/11/9 at worlds? And it will stay that way forever if she doesn’t learn to skate properly. She has to send a message she is interested in learning by trying to be Coached by a Russian who knows skating skills are important or someone! She can’t win the Russian title in December and then go to euros and worlds with the same skating skills she has now! The team will be crushed!! There a reason only 9/11/9 at worlds and no defeat of b/s at euros and no gp wins or gpf. There needs to be a new level of skating that will not be destroyed under the microscope of being Russia number one like b/s experienced being destroyed! Bobrova bent speed skater posture was rejected and Stepanova faces the same thing!

But then there is the Bukin problem! Is he banned from Beijing? Need proof he isn’t. Why make s/b number one of Bukin is banned from Beijing?

A main problem is if coruse the banning of all non Russian coaching of Russian skaters! So it’s dumb to talk about dubreuil or spiliband or zueva or Fusar poli anymore! Totally dumb!! And breaking away from Russian coaches could destroy the team in Russia anyway! Like Stepanova and Bukin go to dubreuil and then don’t medal at Russian nationals! So forget it!

Anna Rumak (2007) / Gleb Goncharov (2007)
This pair of 10 yo kids skates already better than Bobrova and Stepanova, I guess.

puremagic said:

Anna Rumak (2007) / Gleb Goncharov (2007)
This pair of 10 yo kids skates already better than Bobrova and Stepanova, I guess.

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No doubt about it!!

puremagic said:

Anna Rumak (2007) / Gleb Goncharov (2007)
This pair of 10 yo kids skates already better than Bobrova and Stepanova, I guess.

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Wow they are promising, they remind me of Tessa and Scott. Who are their coaches?

B/S will not go to Worlds.

madison said:

B/S will not go to Worlds.

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Hopefully Russia can keep their 2 spots, I guess.

B/S to be replaced by S/K.

LadyB said:

B/S to be replaced by S/K.

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Zhulin wants this, but it is not confirmed.

LadyB said:

B/S to be replaced by S/K.

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S/K aren't even listed as subs - looks like Z/G will go.

I wonder in what state S/B are at the moment.

coldblueeyes said:

I wonder in what state S/B are at the moment.

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OHHH YESSS, they will be fabulous. I predict top 8 or higher!!

madison said:

Zhulin wants this, but it is not confirmed.

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Yeah, you're right. I didn't read it thoroughly. Sorry.

LadyB said:

Yeah, you're right. I didn't read it thoroughly. Sorry.

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Wow. Only in Russian ice dance.

why are Stepanova / Bukin not competing ??

the IOC just reinstated the russian comittee, did they just not list as entry for Worlds just because of that unfair and baseless reason that were excluded from the IOC invitation and on some rumored list ???

gmyers said:

But then there is the Bukin problem! Is he banned from Beijing? Need proof he isn’t. Why make s/b number one of Bukin is banned from Beijing?

A main problem is if coruse the banning of all non Russian coaching of Russian skaters! So it’s dumb to talk about dubreuil or spiliband or zueva or Fusar poli anymore! Totally dumb!! And breaking away from Russian coaches could destroy the team in Russia anyway! Like Stepanova and Bukin go to dubreuil and then don’t medal at Russian nationals! So forget it!

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why is he banned when the russian committee just got reinstated- doesnt make senese, Im only wondering why they aren't listed in Worlds, unless they are trying to punish him in some unfair IOC invitation. This is totally unfair for S/B. With B/S also not competing, Russia might only get 1 spot for next worlds, lol Popova / Mozgoc or Sinitsina / Katsalapov with Zahorski / Guerrerio arent gonna do the maths for them.