2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

frida80 said:

Someone before mentioned how bad it is that US skaters didn’t make to the GPF this year. In all honesty I think it’s less a reflection of how bad US ladies are in contrast to how other competitors are taking earlier competitions seriously now.

I’ve honestly didn’t take the GP seriously until recently. That’s because it always felt like a warm up to the season. Now with the addition of the CS series and the fact that both Japan and Russia are taking these early competitions very seriously, is bad contrast to the US that often have athletes peak later in the season.

I remember in 2012 at the NHK when Mao beat Mirai, and people were critical because Mao only had about three triples. Just her 3F, 3Lo, and her 2A+3T combo, when the rest of her jumps were popped (Technically Mirai came in 3rd over all.) Contrast that to worlds, when she attempted seven triples including her 3A. Her TES score was 12 points higher. However, she still managed to make it to the GPF with such low technical content because not many people were doing better at the time.

My theory has been that before recently, the first competitions including the GP were a warm up. A way to test out your new programs and work out the bugs while earning medals. When the competition was more serious; GPF, Nationals, Worlds, then competitors would add in more difficulty and also gain consistency needed for this more stressful later competitions. In the past, you could medal at a competition with a score in the 110’s and no triple triple That’s not the case anymore.

Now more skaters are fully prepared. There’s no testing green programs anymore with Russians or Japanese. Ladies are assigned CS competitions early and debut their programs during the summer with all their jumps ready to go. So instead of seeing weak CS competitions with scores mostly in the170’s to 180’s, we see Zhenia, Alina, Maria, and Wakaba all earning over 200 and other skaters like Marin, Mai, and Carolina earning close to 200. Contrast that to the US, where Bradie was the only one that scored close to 200 at the Lombardia Trophy and is now the highest scoring US lady this season. The reason she was so strong at LT was because she competing all summer long to prove to USFS that she deserved the SA spot.

It doesn’t bother me at all that we’re not in the GPF or that we’re not in medal contention for the Olympics. This is something I realized would happen last season. Learning to accept short term losses is the nature of sports. “Can’t win ‘em all.” As the saying goes.. However, the fact that so many ladies are fully prepared at the start of the season means that the US cannot take the CS for granted anymore. They have to ensure ladies are boot ready by September 1st. That means more summer competitions and potential senior B competitions before the start of the CS.

The benefits are clear. Ladies will be more consistent throughout the season. The PCS scores will grow more, ensuring high scores later in the season. They’ll be more competitive, earn higher ISU SB and increase their chances at GP slots for the next season. And it will mean a better national competition in January.

I certainly hope USFS gives up their tendency to pin all their hopes on one promising skater, instead ensuring that all skaters can be competitive as possible before they begin their international season.

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angelicaamatina said:

I totally agree. USFSA really needs to make sure skaters are ready to go by September, as you said. Of course, on the other hand, Karen did a competiton in August where she skated perfectly clean in both programs.( I think 2 footed her 3lz-3t but other than that) and then had a disaster season. I think that had more to do with the program switching though....... I am not sure.

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R.D. said:

didn’t occur to me it was all under the P&G umbrella...yikes, even worse than I thought! That Atlantic article hits the issue head on - we’ll never know the true motivation behind the 2014 decision.

I know Bridgestone tires sponsors Wagner - anyone know if they also a Fed sponsor?

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angelicaamatina said:

I totally agree. USFSA really needs to make sure skaters are ready to go by September, as you said. Of course, on the other hand, Karen did a competiton in August where she skated perfectly clean in both programs.( I think 2 footed her 3lz-3t but other than that) and then had a disaster season. I think that had more to do with the program switching though....... I am not sure.

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Gullygirl84 said:

I was thinking about Karen's GF score (I think it was 219 or something) the other day and wondering, without going back to watch, what her tech calls looked like (whether her score was high because things like her combo rotation and flip edge were ignored, or if she really did look to be skating cleaner at that competition than she has internationally). I remember Polina Edmunds scoring over 200 points at GF the summer of 2014, and then her team seemed surprised about all of the rotation calls that she got on the grand prix circuit. I'm not expecting local competitions not to inflate the scores, but these are areas where the local competitions need to make sure that they are giving accurate feedback (of course, guessing local comps don't have access to replay to spot unders, etc.)...

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angelicaamatina said:

I totally agree. USFSA really needs to make sure skaters are ready to go by September, as you said. Of course, on the other hand, Karen did a competiton in August where she skated perfectly clean in both programs.( I think 2 footed her 3lz-3t but other than that) and then had a disaster season. I think that had more to do with the program switching though....... I am not sure.

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frida80 said:

It was Gracie that scored over 200. Polina mostly marked jumps with her FS. But her SP won over Gracie’s. It was heralded as a step in the right direction. Sigh...

The other problem with summer comps, is tech controllers aren’t doing their jobs. If USFS ensures that tech controllers we doing international quality judging, we’d have far more prepared ladies in the fall!

I do think some judges go crazy over the top ladies when they debut. They really went over board of Karen this year, which is why it took her so long to dump her program. Maybe if she didn’t get injured at Philly International, she would’ve realized something was off in August and not October. One way to handle this is to push more top ladies to compete together. When Karen and Ashley competed against each other in SoCal, the scores weren’t as crazy. Not exactly close what they’d get during the season, but far less inflated.

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sinnerspinner said:

As a casual viewer, the 2014 looks horrendous. The most honest explanation ive heard is "No one thought mirai would get 3rd."

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skylark said:

The disasters started long before the switching. She was expected to sail through with an easy win at US Classic in SLC, but came in 3rd. Then, disaster at JO with the same FS. For SC, she had a new FS; that didn't work out, so sometime before SA (I think a couple weeks before) she switched to last year's FS. When she arrived for the first practice at SA, it was announced that she'd switched back to last year's SP.

But the hue and cry about Karen's programs started long before she made any switch. "Everyone" hated Carmen. Who knows .... public outcry may have influenced her to switch. These skaters aren't made of stone; in fact, they've gotten to this elite level precisely by doing what their coaches tell them to do, and by pleasing audiences and judges.

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Gullygirl84 said:

https://twitter.com/umbsgoblue/status/495800891362910210/photo/1

Polina got a 201 at Glacier Falls in 2014 (looks like Gracie perhaps just did the short that year?). I think you’re thinking of 2015 Glacier Falls with Gracie (where Polina led after the short, but Gracie won overall). I will say that I think in lots of cases that people probably are more aware of their technical issues than we realize, even though they might not acknowledge it all of the time, and do work towards improvements.

I'm split on the more competitions=always better thing. In theory, I wish that all of the US girls could compete more against each other, with fair technical panels who are giving them feedback on what to improve on. On the other hand, I think there is something to be said about getting burnt out and not risking injury. Karen definitely competed lots this season, but did it benefit her? My biggest question mark on the changing programs thing is what exactly went down at Champs Camp, and if the USFS is giving guidance on the program changes. Karen went from being the only US lady who finished in the top 4 at nationals last year who had two new programs to being the only one of Ashley, Mirai, and Mariah who will now be competing two old programs. I think that Mariah had a different short and was asked to change it back to her old short after Champs Camp, and we know the deal with Ashley and Moulin Rouge/La La Land...

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skylark said:

No, the most honest answer is that casual viewers thought that US nationals was the one and only Olympic qualifier. That's why USFS went out of their way this year to publicize and emphasize that a nationals podium finish is the 1st tier qualifier, but there are other important qualifiers. International competitions matter.

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frida80 said:

I don’t think a public outcry really influenced her. It was three consequetive losses to other US ladies and not getting th PCS scores to make up the difference. ....

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Karen like Ashley is someone that needs to connect with her music and choreography to really nail the elements. Otherwise, they can’t really attack it. It distracts them. Ironically, I’m the same. I struggled for years learning dance programs before someone informed me that I was a musical learner.

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sinnerspinner said:

Frim my understanding, they usually do take top 3 at nationals. When it counted most, ashley fell...2x...Then usfs has to move goalposts.

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skylark said:

You're probably right; I hope so. My point, though, was that it's difficult not to listen to all the bru-haha out there, and skaters have gotten where they are precisely by being sensitive. Or rather, sensitive people are better able to connect with emotions and audiences, as skaters. Some are able from the beginning to run their race with blinders on. Some have to learn that the hard way.



Interesting. Do you mean that rote learning of the steps to a dance is a struggle? And that connecting the movements and steps to the music is how you learn best? I wonder if that's partly because you're primarily an audial learner? (I'm primarily a visual learner). Or, just what you said, a musical learner ... which could be about being more right-brained that left-brained.

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skylark said:

They didn't move goalposts. They used the criteria that were established, known to all the skaters, and publicly available to be read. Those criteria just hadn't been well known to the general public.

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sinnerspinner said:

How many times has usfsa not picked the winners at nationals?

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frida80 said:

I don’t think a public outcry really influenced her. It was three consequetive losses to other US ladies and not getting th PCS scores to make up the difference. When I saw Karen at SA in her FS, it was like she got a spark in her skating that she hadn’t had all season. I think she decided to ride it out with Carmen, thinking it would grow on her. But you could see her strugglingly to get into the program each time. The emotion and connection just wasn’t there.

Karen like Ashley is someone that needs to connect with her music and choreography to really nail the elements. Otherwise, they can’t really attack it. It distracts them. Ironically, I’m the same. I struggled for years learning dance programs before someone informed me that I was a musical learner.

But Karen is young. I don’t expect her to know that the first time she does a program. Especially if she’s not really being challenged by her competition. But maybe both Ashley and Karen would’ve realized they needed to change their programs earlier if they competed with other top US ladies earlier in the season.

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mrrice said:

The only time I can think of is 2014....

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andromache said:

Karen has always been kind of a mess of a competitor and her programs have nothing to do with it.

I didn't hate either Carmen or her Tango SP (though doing both back-to-back seemed very unnecessary) and I thought she was always fairly successful at performing them with intensity and fierceness, even when the jumps faltered. I did not see her struggling to get into those programs. Not unlike Ashley, Karen can perform very well even when the technical content isn't great.

I realize this is harsh of me, but it's almost never the fault of the program when someone isn't nailing their technical content. Blaming the program is either a total excuse, or it's the skater playing mind games with themselves. You don't see the Russian or Japanese ladies talking about having trouble connecting with their programs. Even when their programs are clearly unsuited to them, or just flat-out bad, they still land and rotate their jumps.

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