2017-18 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

karne · Nov 18, 2017

So, after all the pre-season tossing of Max on the trash heap and proclamations that Vincent was a lock for the Olympic team, here is how Max and Vincent's head to head looks like:

Max 2
Vincent 0

Max is landing his quads (for the most part), and keeping the errors to a relative minimum. He's also rotating his quads (again, for the most part: he got one < call on the second 4T this morning). He's also hiked up his spin and step levels (he had a couple of level 3s in France but everything else has been 4s). His PCS scoring has been incredibly harsh (especially in France) but his programs are good, he's connected with them, and committed to the performances.

Vincent is barely standing up on his quads (mostly not), lots of falls, and he's not rotating them. He's had the benefit of two of the softest technical panels on the GP and should be thanking his lucky stars every day that he wasn't in Canada. His performances have been sloppy and there have been times, like today in the FS, where he appears to have given up on the program.

noskates · Nov 18, 2017

My feeling on Vincent is they're pushing him too hard too soon. Even Tracy addressed the difficulty of his program and the fact that his "in betweens" suffer because he's setting up for the next jump. And that will not fare well internationally. The way things are going - and this competition really proves my point - more quads are being missed or muddied up with 2 foot landings or URs or falls - a young skater such as Vincent would be better off sticking to 1 good quad and perfecting the rest of his programs and skating clean. Work on his skating skills, skate to the music (what a concept) Vincent was adorable when he was a little kid and had soooo much personality and panache on the ice. I don't see any of that now.

I would like to see Nathan, Jason and Adam make the Olympic team. BUT - I think who ever skates the 2 best programs should earn the right to make that team. This is already an odd season and Nationals is going to be brutal. Nathan has the technical ability, Jason has the performance (and Misha Ge proved today you can medal without a quad) and Adam, when clean, has it all. But any of the three of them can falter and make room for someone else. I'm so glad I'm going to Nationals.

yelyoh · Nov 18, 2017

noskates said:
My feeling on Vincent is they're pushing him too hard too soon. Even Tracy addressed the difficulty of his program and the fact that his "in betweens" suffer because he's setting up for the next jump. And that will not fare well internationally. The way things are going - and this competition really proves my point - more quads are being missed or muddied up with 2 foot landings or URs or falls - a young skater such as Vincent would be better off sticking to 1 good quad and perfecting the rest of his programs and skating clean. Work on his skating skills, skate to the music (what a concept) Vincent was adorable when he was a little kid and had soooo much personality and panache on the ice. I don't see any of that now.

I would like to see Nathan, Jason and Adam make the Olympic team. BUT - I think who ever skates the 2 best programs should earn the right to make that team. This is already an odd season and Nationals is going to be brutal. Nathan has the technical ability, Jason has the performance (and Misha Ge proved today you can medal without a quad) and Adam, when clean, has it all. But any of the three of them can falter and make room for someone else. I'm so glad I'm going to Nationals.

I've never thought as others did that Vincent would get the second spot on the Oly team. At this point it is unlikely. IMO it's between Max, Adam and Jason and I'd go with the former two but we'll see how Nats turns out.

mrrice · Nov 18, 2017

noskates said:
My feeling on Vincent is they're pushing him too hard too soon. Even Tracy addressed the difficulty of his program and the fact that his "in betweens" suffer because he's setting up for the next jump. And that will not fare well internationally. The way things are going - and this competition really proves my point - more quads are being missed or muddied up with 2 foot landings or URs or falls - a young skater such as Vincent would be better off sticking to 1 good quad and perfecting the rest of his programs and skating clean. Work on his skating skills, skate to the music (what a concept) Vincent was adorable when he was a little kid and had soooo much personality and panache on the ice. I don't see any of that now.

I would like to see Nathan, Jason and Adam make the Olympic team. BUT - I think who ever skates the 2 best programs should earn the right to make that team. This is already an odd season and Nationals is going to be brutal. Nathan has the technical ability, Jason has the performance (and Misha Ge proved today you can medal without a quad) and Adam, when clean, has it all. But any of the three of them can falter and make room for someone else. I'm so glad I'm going to Nationals.

Yes he does.....At this point, I would certainly put a clean Adam ahead of all of the US Men except Nathan. However, I haven't seen SO many of the Men. Alexander Johnson, Timothy Dolensky, Ross Miner, and even a clean Grant, could also shake things up. Alexei Krasnozhon is staying in the Juniors, right?

SnowWhite · Nov 18, 2017

My personal wish list for the Olympic team has changed over the last few months, but right now I'm hoping that Adam makes it. Nathan will for sure, which is fine with me. I like his programs (well mostly the short right now, but it's great) and his personality (he's funny on social media, joking around with Nam and Roman). Adam's performance at NHK convinced me. I like both Jason and Max too, so I'd be happy to see either of them on the team, especially Max because he hasn't gone to the Olympics.

el henry · Nov 18, 2017

mrrice said:
Yes he does.....At this point, I would certainly put a clean Adam ahead of all of the US Men except Nathan. However, I haven't seen SO many of the Men. Alexander Johnson, Timothy Dolensky, Ross Miner, and even a clean Grant, could also shake things up. Alexei Krasnozhon is staying in the Juniors, right?

Alex K. is competing as a senior at US Nats, but competed on the Junior Grand Prix this year. He has competed as a senior internationally ( I saw him at Liberty), but I will be honest, I don’t know if he has senior minimums or what competing On the JGP means for the Olys in terms of qualifications.

And I do love me some Alex K., but for him to podium at Nats would be some kind of upset.

Chemistry66 · Nov 18, 2017

el henry said:
Alex K. is competing as a senior at US Nats, but competed on the Junior Grand Prix this year. He has competed as a senior internationally ( I saw him at Liberty), but I will be honest, I don’t know if he has senior minimums or what competing On the JGP means for the Olys in terms of qualifications.

And I do love me some Alex K., but for him to podium at Nats would be some kind of upset.

Krasnozhon is registered for the Tallinn Trophy Challenger Series event scheduled from November 21 to November 26.

He's already met the Worlds minimum TES and thus also the 4CCs/Olympics TES (34.00 SP/64.00 FS), from the Philadelphia Summer International, where he got 40.92 SP TES and 65.88 FS TES

See the Men's TES tracker here

evasorange · Nov 18, 2017

Well what a disappointment for Max. I think he really needed a medal here to put himself ahead of Jason. He needs to be FLAWLESS at nationals to make that team. Nathan is a lock, Adam clearly isn't messing around and I expect we will see him in very good shape next week and Jason unlike Max can be saved from weak jumps with his pcs. Vincent, clearly not a bad skater but clearly not ready to compete with the big guns. Its alright, he's only 17 and will most likely have a good next four years. With that said, if he manages to knock out 3-4 clean quads at nationals I can see US federation giving him a spot on the team....

mrrice · Nov 18, 2017

evasorange said:
Well what a disappointment for Max. I think he really needed a medal here to put himself ahead of Jason. He needs to be FLAWLESS at nationals to make that team. Nathan is a lock, Adam clearly isn't messing around and I expect we will see him in very good shape next week and Jason unlike Max can be saved from weak jumps with his pcs. Vincent, clearly not a bad skater but clearly not ready to compete with the big guns. Its alright, he's only 17 and will most likely have a good next four years. With that said, if he manages to knock out 3-4 clean quads at nationals I can see US federation giving him a spot on the team....

I hope they don't give Vincent a spot and leave Max off the team. He was not at his best in France and he still beat Vincent. Max would have to bomb and Vincent would need to be perfect to get a spot ahead of Max. It's too bad Ross and Grant had such shaky debuts, it's like they've dropped off the Map and they're former World Team members.

MRani · Nov 18, 2017

I admire Vincent and I’m excited about his future, but I’m not sure that he’s proven he should be put on the team ahead of Adam, Jason, and Max even if he lands all his quads at Nationals. At this point his international results don’t measure up well to the other top American guys. The judges haven’t embraced him artistically the way they did Shoma and Nathan when they debuted, so he doesn’t have their room for errors in the technical side. His quads also aren’t of the same high quality as Boyang’s so he can’t rely on high GOEs either. He’s very beatable right now even by guys who don’t have quads.

I’m sure with time he’s going to improve on all his flaws and became a real international threat, but it may not happen this season. It should be ok for him to need more than one senior season to get his feet under him, it’s just a shame it has to be an Olympic season.

Mrs. P · Nov 18, 2017

el henry said:
Alex K. is competing as a senior at US Nats, but competed on the Junior Grand Prix this year. He has competed as a senior internationally ( I saw him at Liberty), but I will be honest, I don’t know if he has senior minimums or what competing On the JGP means for the Olys in terms of qualifications.

And I do love me some Alex K., but for him to podium at Nats would be some kind of upset.

Alexei probably is not a U.S. citizen, so wouldn't be able to go to the Olympics regardless of how he places.

mrrice · Nov 18, 2017

Mrs. P said:
Alexei probably is not a U.S. citizen, so wouldn't be able to go to the Olympics regardless of how he places.

Does he plan on changing his status? It seems strange that he would have waited this long if he has dreams of going to the Olympics in the future.

Mrs. P · Nov 18, 2017

mrrice said:
Does he plan on changing his status? It seems strange that he would have waited this long if he has dreams of going to the Olympics in the future.

I'm sure he will, but he hasn't lived in the U.S. long enough to apply for citizenship. IIRC, he came to the US around 2014, so it would have only been three years -- generally you have to be in the US for at least five years.

Ic3Rabbit · Nov 18, 2017

mrrice said:
Does he plan on changing his status? It seems strange that he would have waited this long if he has dreams of going to the Olympics in the future.

Last I knew, they were working on it.

karne · Nov 19, 2017

evasorange said:
if he manages to knock out 3-4 clean quads at nationals I can see US federation giving him a spot on the team....

My main problem with this concept: Vincent doesn't rotate. We know he doesn't rotate. He's been called out for not rotating. He should be saying his prayers and thanking every lucky star there ever was that he did not skate in Canada because of the rotation issues.

A US Nationals panel is not gonna call him out on it.

The skaters who can rotate will be punished as the ones who can't are given a leniency they don't deserve.

Mathman · Nov 19, 2017

mrrice said:
I hope they don't give Vincent a spot and leave Max off the team.

I don't think that "they will give Vincent a spot." But he might earn one by out-pointing everyone else at Nationals.

karne · Nov 19, 2017

Mathman said:
I don't think that "they will give Vincent a spot." But he might earn one by out-pointing everyone else at Nationals.

But again, see my point above - will the points actually reflect what happened, or will they be because of lenient tech panels? The fact that Zhou only got one UR call in the FS in France was a disgrace - it was blatantly obvious that more jumps than one were short of rotation. And that disgrace meant his FS scored only two points less than Max's, and Max clearly and obviously rotated everything bar the second quad toe.

This is what I mean by punishing the ones who rotate by not calling out the ones who don't.

mrrice · Nov 19, 2017

Mathman said:
I don't think that "they will give Vincent a spot." But he might earn one by out-pointing everyone else at Nationals.

I'd love to see that happen but, this weekend did not leave me with a good feeling about Vincent. However, he's still so young and this is his first season as a true Senior, right? He'll be fine for 2022. After seeing Misha Ge outscore some big jumpers in France, I am back on the Jason Brown and Adam Rippon train. Nathan's been consistent and his programs are winners. He's a lock.

Mrs. P · Nov 19, 2017

karne said:
But again, see my point above - will the points actually reflect what happened, or will they be because of lenient tech panels? The fact that Zhou only got one UR call in the FS in France was a disgrace - it was blatantly obvious that more jumps than one were short of rotation. And that disgrace meant his FS scored only two points less than Max's, and Max clearly and obviously rotated everything bar the second quad toe.

This is what I mean by punishing the ones who rotate by not calling out the ones who don't.

Just for the skate of discussion, and strictly talking about Max here. Max did leave points on the table today by 1.) Not doing a -3T combo 2.) Not scoring super high +GOE on a majority of elements -- The quad's power isn't just in the BV, but in taking advantage of the higher scale of values with 3As/quads. Most of his +GOE are +1... we need to see more +2 and +3 especially on the jumps. 3.) Spin/step levels. They've improved from previous years -- but again, every point counts.

mrrice said:
I'd love to see that happen but, this weekend did not leave me with a good feeling about Vincent. However, he's still so young and this is his first season as a true Senior, right? He'll be fine for 2022. After seeing Misha Ge outscore some big jumpers in France, I am back on the Jason Brown and Adam Rippon train. Nathan's been consistent and his programs are winners. He's a lock.

A lot can happen between now and 2022. Not saying this is his last shot, but things do come up. I still think Vincent is an eligible contender for this Olympics.

noskates · Nov 19, 2017

You know really the only place I read or see hype about Vincent being the second coming of whomever is here! I think some posters have talked him up to the point that it's become a fact that he's awesome. He can jump.....but they're sloppy. His moves in the field or whatever you want to call them are juvenile at best. He has no personality on the ice. He has always had a lot of talent and my personal opinion is that it isn't being tapped. I would like to see him with a different coach and a good choreographer. He clearly needs some direction if he's to advance in the sport. It was almost embarassing today.

Max was sloppy on his SP and LP. He made little mistakes - as Mrs. P pointed out - and they do add up. I do think he skated better than Vince, however, and that comes down to the ridiculous rule of getting points for attempting quads....no matter how ugly they turn out. I do think there should be a bigger penalty for falls. That would take some of the inconsistency out of the judging. You fall.....you don't get points. (whoa - the outcome of this competition would have been significantly different - interesting thought) But quite frankly if you were just judging on this competition - neither one of them did very well. I expected at least a 4th place from Max.

And it was wonderful to see Misha Ge get a medal without a quad. Shows that there still is value in beautiful skating.

2017-18 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

noskates

yelyoh

mrrice

SnowWhite

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

Chemistry66

Mmmmm, tacos.

evasorange

mrrice

MRani

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

mrrice

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

Mathman

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

mrrice

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

noskates

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