Cut down on long program jumping passes | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Cut down on long program jumping passes

xeyra

Constant state
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 10, 2017
I say make both men/women do half their elements in the first half. While I am impressed by any skater who can still move after two minutes I do not like it when they throw everything in the second half.

To be honest, who other than Alina Zagitova (and Evgenia in the SP) throws everything in the second half? An example does not make for a rule change. Most men divide their jumping passes in the FS as 3/5 or 4/4 and the ladies have at least 2/3 in the first half as well.
 

Neenah16

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 4, 2016
Why is it that every time someone has a problem with the sport they suggest more rules or penalties on the skaters? I think we can all agree that the rules we have now are good enough if they were followed properly, like xeyra and mrfarmer said in their posts. Also, it is a well known fact that too many rules kills creativity.

the ugly positions, bad technique, and empty programs are the result of the bad judging and not laziness or cheating from the skaters. This is a sport and they want to win so they will do what gets them points, and it is obvious from the way the scores are given that the jumps are what matter to the judges. I am sure most of the skaters want to have great programs and memorable performances that are good technically and artistically (they chose figure skating after all), but they are being pushed into doing whatever it takes to get the points even if it compromises their vision of their skating.

I don't see why we are asking for the skaters to be punished for the bad judging while the ISU and the judges themselves get away with whatever.
 

mrfarmer

Rinkside
Joined
Jun 6, 2017
GOEs are awarded based on a set of specific bullet points, for jumps and spins and steps. Getting high GOE on a jump or a spin that doesn't look particularly eye pleasing is not wrong according to the code of points, because if they match bullet points, they should be given the points for it. It does seem, though, that quads and triple axels are much more likely to be given GOEs for the bullets they match than many other triples. I don't think I see a lot of triples in men getting full GOE, even if they were to match the number of bullets required for it. If someone manages to have full GOE on a 3Lz in the second half, which would be 8.70 points, that would still be less than a base value of a 4T in the first half. The difficulty of doing quads is already being rewarded in the base value, so it confuses me why we see so few non 3A triples being rewarded. And yet, it's rare to see GOEs above 1.50 (that's around a +2 avg.) for a non-3A triple.

I agree earlier skating groups don't get as many GOE. Sure, most of the time it is because those earlier skating groups have less technically proficient skaters compared to later groups, but you can see even differences between the second to last and the last groups of a competition. For all that the bullet points for GOEs should make it more objective, judging does seem to be rather subjective and it does seem GOEs start flowing more at the upper echelons and can be somewhat dependent on skating order too.

GOE's have always been subjective, even with the bullets points given. In the Yuna Kim era, it has to do with height and distance, transitions and immediately going to another element after an element. But you still won't see perfect 3's across the board then, even how beautifully executed the jump was. There's always going to be a negative or a zero in there. Today, it seems judges are more in sync, or at least that's what we believe in.

PCS-wise: don't even get me started with this.
 

sinnerspinner

On the Ice
Joined
May 4, 2017
One more vote for get rid of Biellmann spins, unless they are well done. A handful of ladies who do it well make everyone else's biellmanns look bad, really bad. I feel bad for saying that bc i can't skate, but i do fine it irritating.
 

TerpsichoreFS

Marin Honda's skating skills
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 10, 2016
Personally I think that in general the men tend to do a better job than women with including interesting choreography between the elements. There are probably several reasons for this. And of course it's only a general trend: there are women have great choreography and men who do nothing but jump.

What reasons are you thinking of?

I tend to agree with you. For the past several years I found myself thinking men's programs were more interesting, and unique with more artistic involvement in general which is strange because the content is harder.

I also agree with what was said above that cutting down the step sequence could be a good thing since they do tend to drag on, and there is a lot of unnecessary movement going on because of level 4.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
What reasons are you thinking of?

Just speculating, but I'd say a combination of the following:

*Men tend to reach senior level and reach their peak at older ages, and they can often stay in the sport longer because of less competition from younger skaters coming up in their countries, so they tend to have more life experience to draw on

*There seems to have been a sense that the way for women to be artistic was to cultivate beautiful positions and body line, or failing that to show off their sex appeal or to be perky and pleasing. There doesn't seem to have been much encouragement for women to think outside those boxes, although these days I think they're thinking more about maximizing technical scores. Many men, on the other hand, actively resist the idea of showing how beautiful or sexy they can be, so they look for other ways to show "artistry."

*Men don't have to struggle as much to master and maintain triple jumps, so those who aren't pursuing quads have more training time to devote to skating skills and choreography.

*It used to be that men had to do two step sequences in both programs (or for a few years at the turn of the century, one step sequence and one field moves sequence in the freeskate), whereas women were required to do one spiral sequence and one step sequence. There is certainly room for creativity in spiral sequences, but I think step sequences offer more options for storytelling type movement and develop more variety of skills that can also be used between technical elements.

I tend to agree with you. For the past several years I found myself thinking men's programs were more interesting, and unique with more artistic involvement in general which is strange because the content is harder.

Of course "interesting" is in the eye of the beholder, so not everyone will agree with us on that point.
 

andromache

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
^^^I think men and ladies skating just tends to ebb and flow artistically, depending on the current crop and who is at the top.

You're definitely right about the age thing having an impact, and this is what we've seen since 2014-2015 - lots of the older, more artistically-advanced ladies retired or stepped away from competition for a period of time, or were unable to stay at the top from a technical point-of-view. The younger ladies who have taken their place are definitely developing artistically, and doing different, interesting things, but in comparison to the top, more experienced men, fall a little short.

But man, going into the 2013-2014 season and throughout that season, there was a huge number of Olympic medal contenders - Kim, Asada, Kostner, Sotnikova, Lipnitskaya, Tuktamysheva (before her lackluster season), Wagner, Gold, Suzuki, etc. Of those, Yuna, Mao, maybe Carolina, and Yulia were considered to be true OGM threats.

In comparison, there's still a long list of ladies who could win Olympic medals in 2018 - but OGM contenders? Evgenia and (maybe) Alina. But if we're lucky, we'll see more contenders emerge throughout the season.

Meanwhile, for the men in 2014, Patrick and Yuzuru were the clear favorites for silver and gold - the dominant threat (Patrick, like Evgenia), and the only other person with the technical firepower to bring them down (Yuzuru - could be like Alina?). Heading into this season? The men's field is so stacked. Yuzuru = Yuna, the defending world and Olympic champion, the favorite. Javier can win, too. But there's also Shoma and Nathan and Boyang who could all win OGM as well.

The younger men are good, but they're still in development, and if Yuzu and Javi (and Patrick) retire post-2018, the men's field will look much less impressive, similar to how the ladies field has looked this Olympic quad. Meanwhile, the top ladies: Evgenia, Alina, Satoko, Mai, Anna, Maria, and more, are all likely to be major factors and in the artistic peak of their careers in the years after 2018. (And we'll need all the gorgeousness we can get - I think ice dance will be decimated by retirements post-2018. Pairs will fare better, with the Chinese pairs and Tarasova/Morozov all likely to keep competing and developing, but we'll likely be losing D/R, St/Kl, and S/M. If there's a god out there then J/C will keep competing.)

Anyway, this turned rambling. Sorry.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
When I said "interesting," I meant the average level of interest (to me) of the choreography -- not how competitive/unpredictable the field was.
 

andromache

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
When I said "interesting," I meant the average level of interest (to me) of the choreography -- not how competitive/unpredictable the field was.

I realized that, but then I got off on another track entirely, lol, thinking generally about how artistic development of the field as a whole contributes to competitiveness.
 

suihan

Rinkside
Joined
May 1, 2017
Here's a different idea. How about we keep the full 4:30. If we're talking about having more "artistry" and skating in the most objective terms possible, why not just add another step sequence? The first one in the first half of the program and a second different one in the later half, at minimum 45 secs long each, that way programs can feel more balanced. Of course we will have to change the values and apply new and stricter rules on what makes a step sequence a good one. We can take away 2 jumping passes (throw out 2 triples if that's what the men will do) to allow skaters some room. It'll be up to them how they will manage their jumps between the mandatory duration on steps.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
GOEs are awarded based on a set of specific bullet points, for jumps and spins and steps. Getting high GOE on a jump or a spin that doesn't look particularly eye pleasing is not wrong according to the code of points, because if they match bullet points, they should be given the points for it. It does seem, though, that quads and triple axels are much more likely to be given GOEs for the bullets they match than many other triples. I don't think I see a lot of triples in men getting full GOE, even if they were to match the number of bullets required for it. If someone manages to have full GOE on a 3Lz in the second half, which would be 8.70 points, that would still be less than a base value of a 4T in the first half. The difficulty of doing quads is already being rewarded in the base value, so it confuses me why we see so few non 3A triples being rewarded. And yet, it's rare to see GOEs above 1.50 (that's around a +2 avg.) for a non-3A triple.

I agree earlier skating groups don't get as many GOE. Sure, most of the time it is because those earlier skating groups have less technically proficient skaters compared to later groups, but you can see even differences between the second to last and the last groups of a competition. For all that the bullet points for GOEs should make it more objective, judging does seem to be rather subjective and it does seem GOEs start flowing more at the upper echelons and can be somewhat dependent on skating order too.

Although I certainly find some positions ugly, that wasn't what I was talking about.

A "flutz" is not a lutz. Jumps are classified by their takeoffs, not the skater's intent. If a lutz does not proceed from a clear outside edge, then it is not a lutz. We can try to justify with "!" or "e" but the fact remains: The jump was not a lutz. And if the jump was so sketchy that slow-motion zoom-in technology is required, then it's really not done well. At all.

Likewise, a triple that does not "get around" is not a triple. Plain and simple. It is an over-rotated double, and should be judged as such.

I say again: people get their knickers is a twist over a point or two of PCS, while completely ignoring the MUCH greater point differentials awarded to faulty or non-existent jumping passes.

Edit to add: By "nonexistent jumping passes" I mean jumps with no award in the CoP. Both a "flutz" and a "lip" are not recognized jumps.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
I'm actually fine with shortening the FS and wouldn't even mind adding an additional jumping pass. :drama:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Although I certainly find some positions ugly, that wasn't what I was talking about.

A "flutz" is not a lutz. Jumps are classified by their takeoffs, not the skater's intent. If a lutz does not proceed from a clear outside edge, then it is not a lutz. We can try to justify with "!" or "e" but the fact remains: The jump was not a lutz. And if the jump was so sketchy that slow-motion zoom-in technology is required, then it's really not done well. At all.

Likewise, a triple that does not "get around" is not a triple. Plain and simple. It is an over-rotated double, and should be judged as such.

I say again: people get their knickers is a twist over a point or two of PCS, while completely ignoring the MUCH greater point differentials awarded to faulty or non-existent jumping passes.

Edit to add: By "nonexistent jumping passes" I mean jumps with no award in the CoP. Both a "flutz" and a "lip" are not recognized jumps.


But skaters get deducted for edge calls and under-rotations.

I think that skaters should be fairly rewarded for good technique, and penalized for poor technique. But to me, a triple flutz is still a jump, even if it's a faulty attempt at a lutz. A lutz is also defined by counter-rotation from an outside edge. The skater getting onto an inside edge is bad technique, but the overall mechanics of the jump are the same.

To me, a true Biellmann is really with both hands on the blade, too, but there are plenty of skaters who force them and hold their blade with one hand and hold their arm with the other hand to make it seem like they're doing a Biellmann.

And usually it's not just a point or two of PCS -- it's usually a difference of 4+ points on PCS that people tend to get worked up about.
 

xeyra

Constant state
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 10, 2017
Although I certainly find some positions ugly, that wasn't what I was talking about.

A "flutz" is not a lutz. Jumps are classified by their takeoffs, not the skater's intent. If a lutz does not proceed from a clear outside edge, then it is not a lutz. We can try to justify with "!" or "e" but the fact remains: The jump was not a lutz. And if the jump was so sketchy that slow-motion zoom-in technology is required, then it's really not done well. At all.

Likewise, a triple that does not "get around" is not a triple. Plain and simple. It is an over-rotated double, and should be judged as such.

I say again: people get their knickers is a twist over a point or two of PCS, while completely ignoring the MUCH greater point differentials awarded to faulty or non-existent jumping passes.

Edit to add: By "nonexistent jumping passes" I mean jumps with no award in the CoP. Both a "flutz" and a "lip" are not recognized jumps.

I don't disagree. And however much debate one can have about edges not being properly called, when it is, one usually gets negative GOE for that faulty jump (at least for e calls). Or do you mean that in your opinion the jump shouldn't even get any BV if it doesn't take off from the proper edge?
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
I don't disagree. And however much debate one can have about edges not being properly called, when it is, one usually gets negative GOE for that faulty jump (at least for e calls). Or do you mean that in your opinion the jump shouldn't even get any BV if it doesn't take off from the proper edge?

Yes. This is exactly what I mean. If it takes off, or lands, on an improper edge, then it should be an invalid element. No points.

That's my position.
 

mrfarmer

Rinkside
Joined
Jun 6, 2017
Yes. This is exactly what I mean. If it takes off, or lands, on an improper edge, then it should be an invalid element. No points.

That's my position.

I don't know what this will entail in real life application but in theory, if this is implemented, it would make single and pair skaters jump properly. Then, we will have no qualms about flutzing, lipping, etc. As it is, this will also make the technical caller of any event all the more powerful, and we know Shin Amano is the only one with any remote credibility...
 

mrfarmer

Rinkside
Joined
Jun 6, 2017
But man, going into the 2013-2014 season and throughout that season, there was a huge number of Olympic medal contenders - Kim, Asada, Kostner, Sotnikova, Lipnitskaya, Tuktamysheva (before her lackluster season), Wagner, Gold, Suzuki, etc. Of those, Yuna, Mao, maybe Carolina, and Yulia were considered to be true OGM threats.

In comparison, there's still a long list of ladies who could win Olympic medals in 2018 - but OGM contenders? Evgenia and (maybe) Alina. But if we're lucky, we'll see more contenders emerge throughout the season.

Meanwhile, for the men in 2014, Patrick and Yuzuru were the clear favorites for silver and gold - the dominant threat (Patrick, like Evgenia), and the only other person with the technical firepower to bring them down (Yuzuru - could be like Alina?). Heading into this season? The men's field is so stacked. Yuzuru = Yuna, the defending world and Olympic champion, the favorite. Javier can win, too. But there's also Shoma and Nathan and Boyang who could all win OGM as well.

Re: Ladies OGM contenders, Alina, depending on how the senior judges will treat her, will surely be a threat, but I do believe that if Evgenia throws down 2 clean programs, she's going to be OGM. Yhe Olympic stage is a curious beast though: testy, dangerous, and has a cruel sense of humor. Maybe Marin will come out victorious, or Polina becomes a demigod and defeat them all, or maybe Satoko will pull out an upset victory, or Kaetlyn will outjump them all. We'll never know.

Re: Men's OGM contenders. This, I, actually am very excited about. Yuzuru has a lot to do to get his second OGM. There's Javi, Patrick (the veterans) and then there's the new crop - Shoma, Nathan, Boyang. We have a REAL competition in our hands; a real competition where if one falters, the others will surely swoop in immediately. I can feel the hunger from each of these guys, more so than the ladies, that's why this is going to be the marquee event for me this Olympic Games.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
I don't know what this will entail in real life application but in theory, if this is implemented, it would make single and pair skaters jump properly. Then, we will have no qualms about flutzing, lipping, etc. As it is, this will also make the technical caller of any event all the more powerful, and we know Shin Amano is the only one with any remote credibility...

Exactly. I'm a huge fan of technical advancement in our sport. I love me some quads.

But, I think the jumps should be executed properly. There is some awful jumping technique on display recently.

And while I've been focused on take-off and landing edges/vaults, huge problems exist in under-rotated jumps and pre-rotations. Given that the callers have access to slow-motion instant replay, there is simply no excuse for it.

And I don't have a problem in giving callers like Shin Amano that kind of authority.

US Nationals have become a judging joke, and the problem has become widespread internationally.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
Re: Men's OGM contenders. This, I, actually am very excited about. Yuzuru has a lot to do to get his second OGM. There's Javi, Patrick (the veterans) and then there's the new crop - Shoma, Nathan, Boyang. We have a REAL competition in our hands; a real competition where if one falters, the others will surely swoop in immediately. I can feel the hunger from each of these guys, more so than the ladies, that's why this is going to be the marquee event for me this Olympic Games.

Agreed. The men's event will be the hottest thing at the Olympics. Huge risks, and some pretty good artistry, too.

The women's event will be ho-hum. Evgenia will win, and she deserves it, but I don't find her or any of the other ladies particularly exciting.

I'm looking forward to the Chinese pairs, whom I've recently fallen in love. Virtue and Moir will probably deserve the dance medal.
 

Crabe 93

Spectator
Joined
Jun 20, 2017
I don't like the new rule of reducing the free skate by 30s.

30 sec less and one jump pass less doesn't mean "less jumps and more artistry " . Because 30 sec doe not equal a jump. It is reducing the time for showing some artistry. And that's why men's programmes currently seem to have more artistry than women's. And even in the preparation of the jumps, a lot of skaters try to show artistry and skills, in a way to improve PCS.
What's more, I heard that the choreo sequence will be removed !! For me, when done well, it is one of the elements that add the purpose, the magic and the creativity of a program.

On the whole, this rule means less time for transitions/artistry and more focus on jumps.
(Although I tend to consider jumps as very important and I don't like either that they reduce their number)
I also believe it is more a way to make competitions shorter (because of TV business) , but that's another topic.
 
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