Why are there only 6 basic jumps? | Golden Skate

Why are there only 6 basic jumps?

Elsie

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 21, 2016
This is my very first post ever on this forum and I'm not a skater myself, but I would like to know why there are only six basic jumps: salchow, loop, toe-loop, flip, lutz and axel.

I understand that it has something to do with take-off edges and such, but wouldn't there be any room for more jumps, perhaps of a totally different kind? I remember the back-flip (made famous by Surya Bonaly) but that one was banned because it's considered too dangerous.

I can see how skaters are trying to make the existing jumps more complicated by adding extra revolutions, tanos and rippons. But what about other possible jumps (it doesn't even have to be jumps per se)?

It would be so exciting if figure skating also evolved in totally different ways instead of simply perfecting what's already there.
 

Barb

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
This is my very first post ever on this forum and I'm not a skater myself, but I would like to know why there are only six basic jumps: salchow, loop, toe-loop, flip, lutz and axel.

I understand that it has something to do with take-off edges and such, but wouldn't there be any room for more jumps, perhaps of a totally different kind? I remember the back-flip (made famous by Surya Bonaly) but that one was banned because it's considered too dangerous.

I can see how skaters are trying to make the existing jumps more complicated by adding extra revolutions, tanos and rippons. But what about other possible jumps (it doesn't even have to be jumps per se)?

It would be so exciting if figure skating also evolved in totally different ways instead of simply perfecting what's already there.

I guess simply no one has invented more kinds of jumps. It would be cool more kind of jumps.
 

jFarrisFAN

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Nobody has invented new rotational jumps because no other ones are possible just based off the limited take off edges and picks.
 

icetigger

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
From what I understand there are more than six basic jumps. There are for example the walley jump and also the toe walley. The toe walley is an opposite edge version of a toe loop. Whereas a walley is a sort of opposite edge version of a loop. There is also an opposite edge partner to the axle called an inside axle. I presume there is also an opposite edge version of the salchow too (it may be called a toeless lutz?) I know that a flip used to sometimes be called a toe-salchow. And a flip and lutz are obviously opposite edge versions of each other.

So these would be the jumps with their opposite edge pairings.


Toe loop- toe walley
Salchow- toeless lutz???
Loop- walley
Flip- Lutz

Axle-Inside axle (The relationship between these two jumps is different than the above relationships, because the take off is from the opposite foot as well as the opposite edge)

I don't skate myself (and I'm not sure if I am correct on any of this) but I would guess that the other jumps aren't done because they aren't necessarily a direct translation of the jump that is classically done, because of how a skater has to rotate off of the edge; and they are therefore much more difficult. I remember reading years ago somewhere that under IJS a toe walley is scored as a toe-loop, but that no-one would do a toe-walley because it's a much more difficult jump; but wikipedia currently says that it is a non-scoring jump under the isu rules.

Here is Yuna Kim's walley jump for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2H9I9lugUk
 
Joined
Sep 24, 2014
Actually, there are a lot of jumps that used to be used that aren't really anymore, like axels from forward inside edges, toe walleys (inside edge instead of the outside edge of the toe loop), etc. But actually, there are other possible jump techniques that haven't been tried, like forward take-off with toe pick assist, or approaching a jump from the side rather than front or back, mainly because they would be difficult, awkward, and not aesthetically pleasing. And skating is very much a sport that doesn't encourage deviation in jump technique at the current time. I could experiment and report back in a few years. ;P
 

jFarrisFAN

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
^ and ^^ for most of those you can't do more than 2 rotations so that's probably why they aren't considered real jumping passes
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Jumps are named based on
*takeoff edge (forward or backward, inside or outside)
*whether or not there is a toepick assist (backward takeoffs only)
*whether the rotation in the air is in the same direction as the takeoff edge or "counterrotated"

Almost all variants of the above can be performed with half-rotation (backward to forward or forward to backward), and several can be performed with 1 or 1.5 rotations.

Many of the varieties of low-rotation jumps have their own names, even if the takeoff edge, pick status, and natural/counter rotation status are the same as a multirevolution jump.

They were all available for use in freeskating programs earlier in the history of the sport, before double and then triple and eventually quad jumps became important to technical content. They are still available hops to be used in steps sequences or as transitions. Coaches, choreographers, and skaters will talk about inserting a mazurka or ballet jump or counter jump or half-lutz, half-axel, one-foot salchow, etc., etc., if their linguistic skating community has a name for that move. But they don't count much as technical elements on their own, especially in IJS where they're considered "nonlisted jumps," so commentators usually don't bother naming on them on TV.

Sometimes there are additional names for variations based on the air position and/or landing technique. Most jumps land backward on a back outside edge that curves in the same direction as the in-air rotation. Variants with a different landing edge (e.g., back inside edge of the other foot) might get a special name such as "half-loop" or "one-foot axel."

There are only 6 types of takeoffs that can easily be performed with two or more rotations, and those have become more important in the sport as more and more skaters have been able to add more revolutions to those takeoffs.

Some resources:
http://sk8stuff.com/f_basic_ref/jump_table.htm
http://iceskatingresources.org/FigureSkatingQ&A.pdf
http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/faq/technical.shtml#Q1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_skating_jumps#Other_jumps
 

icetigger

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
^ and ^^ for most of those you can't do more than 2 rotations so that's probably why they aren't considered real jumping passes

Yes, but they are still named jumps and they are still technically possible for at least one rotation and sometimes two.
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
..Because Hanyu has not invent one yet. :biggrin:
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
here is Josée Chouinard doing a triple toe walley...

under 6.0 we would see more attempt at creative jumping passes... but now, this jump has no assigned value does it? so nobody would do it...

now.. i am not an expert... so if this is a normal jump... blame the commentators :)
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
No current skater can invent a brand new way of taking off from the ice into the air. If it's possible, it has been done sometime in the last 80-100 years, perhaps only ever with 180 degree rotation.

If a current skater can find a way to rotate 2-3 rotations and land on a back outside edge from a takeoff that no one has done that with before, I'd love to see it. And to see the ISU add it to the Scale of Values as a double or triple jump even if the single remains unlisted and scored only as a transition. I already think that double walley and double inside axel should be in the scale of values.

If a double rotation from a completely different takeoff doesn't already have an appropriate name, then it could get named after whoever masters it first.
 

andromache

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
I remember the back-flip (made famous by Surya Bonaly) but that one was banned because it's considered too dangerous.

I recall reading it was also banned because doing a back-flip has nothing to do with edges, and ISU didn't want to further promote gymnastics on ice.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Back in 1982 when they created the Zayak rule, the ISU determined that triple toe loop and triple toe walley would be considered as the same jump.

(edited to fix typo)

Pretty much all triple toe walleys including that Chouinard example really curve onto the back outside edge before taking off anyway.

It's important to understand the difference between toe walley (same as toe loop but with the blade curving on the inside edge away from where it's going to land, if done correctly) vs. walley(no toe assist, almost always ever done with single rotation, moderately common in all eras including IJS as a connecting move).

We've discussed this at Golden Skate many times before over the years, but not all of the old threads are still available so we have to reiterate for new posters instead of just pointing to an existing discussion.
 

icetigger

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
here is Josée Chouinard doing a triple toe walley...

under 6.0 we would see more attempt at creative jumping passes... but now, this jump has no assigned value does it? so nobody would do it...

now.. i am not an expert... so if this is a normal jump... blame the commentators :)

Under IJS, this can only possibly lead to a discussion as to whether she switches from an inside to an outside edge at the last moment, and the invention of term "toe lalley".

(as i wrote this, Gkelly initiated the above. LOL)
 

icetigger

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
Back in 1982 when they created the Zayak rule, the ISU determined that triple toe loop and triple walley would be considered as the same jump.

Should that not be "triple toe walley"- think this is a typing error......
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
Back in 1982 when they created the Zayak rule, the ISU determined that triple toe loop and triple walley would be considered as the same jump.

Pretty much all triple toe walleys including that Chouinard example really curve onto the back outside edge before taking off anyway.

It's important to understand the difference between toe walley (same as toe loop but with the blade curving on the inside edge away from where it's going to land, if done correctly) vs. walley(no toe assist, almost always ever done with single rotation, moderately common in all eras including IJS as a connecting move).

We've discussed this at Golden Skate many times before over the years, but not all of the old threads are still available so we have to reiterate for new posters instead of just pointing to an existing discussion.

or for people like me who keep forgetting the explanation ;)

but here is my question : Understanding that ISU has ruled that 3toe walleys are the same as 3toes, why was josée trying it under 6.0? was it seen as more difficult or original under 6.0 even if under the same label for zayak purposes???

would a skater doing it under IJS simply get credit for a 3toe or could they get an GOE incentive as a "variation" of the 3toe?

i am curious because if I recall correctly, i haven't heard about current skaters doing the triple toe walley.... i can see the curve on the ice.. i think it's pretty cool... it would be fun to see more of those don't you think so? or is it just bleh? lol
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I can't really see the clockwise curve of RBI edge on the ice in real time between the counterclockwise turn into the jump and the counterclockwise RBO edge on the takeoff. I just see a wide step.

Maybe the wide step makes the mechanics of the jump work better for some skaters. I don't know -- I never did triples (or successful doubles for that matter).

Also it may be that that approach was common for single toe walleys in pre-TV days, and coaches continued teaching it and calling it toe walley (vs. toe loop) even when skaters were doing triples and not making an effort to hold the inside edge until takeoff. So commentators called it toe walley on TV even though there was no functional difference to the actual triple jump as executed.

I wouldn't mind seeing toe walley added into the Scale of Values if it required a clear inside edge takeoff and/or clear counterrotation in the direction of travel and upper body position before takeoff to get credit as a separate jump. I don't know if it would be possible to do a CCW-rotating triple from a CW approach, with the picking foot inside the CW circle and not behind the skating edge on a CCW curve. It should look different enough from a toe loop if done that way for tech panels to call it differently. If it's possible to do it as single or double, then make that a separate jump to be used at lower levels. Maybe someone would get up to 3 revolutions eventually, maybe not.
 

Elsie

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 21, 2016
I recall reading it was also banned because doing a back-flip has nothing to do with edges, and ISU didn't want to further promote gymnastics on ice.

Didn't Bonaly try to bend the rules by landing her back-flip on one foot, something no one else had done before her? As I understand, the only way it would count as a real jump is if it was landed on one foot, which she did. But then it got banned anyway.

Also, I remember reading something about the lutz being originally jumped in the other direction compared to all other jumps, which is why it is such an awkward jump in its current form. Not sure if this is true or not.

Doing an existing jump in the other direction would also be a variation that could be added to today's figure skating repertoire, but it's still technically the same jump, and I'm more interested in something entirely new, if at all possible. Same with spins. Satoko Miyahara can spin in both directions but she doesn't add anything new to the spins themselves, or not that I'm aware of. Lucinda Ruh did some amazing spins but they were still just spins. Crazy spins but spins nevertheless.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Didn't Bonaly try to bend the rules by landing her back-flip on one foot, something no one else had done before her? As I understand, the only way it would count as a real jump is if it was landed on one foot, which she did. But then it got banned anyway.

Not exactly.

It's true that (as far as I know), no one had ever landed a backflip on one foot previously. But the rules don't say anything about landing on one foot. They just say that "somersault type jumps" are illegal. As I understand, the main reason for banning them was because rewarding that kind of move would take skating into a direction of gymnastics on ice and away from edge-based skill -- the skills needed to flip vertically are irrelevant to the skills of blades curving on ice, whereas at least rotational jumps gain rotational momentum from the skater's control of the skating curves.

Landing on one foot combines the non-skating-related flipping skill with a skating-related landing skill, but it still doesn't root the move itself in skating technique.

I think Scott Hamilton or whoever made that commentary that you're referring to was legitimately impressed by the difficulty of what Bonaly achieved. But I don't think he was accurate in reflecting what the rules actually were.

Also, I remember reading something about the lutz being originally jumped in the other direction compared to all other jumps, which is why it is such an awkward jump in its current form. Not sure if this is true or not.

Sonja Henie certainly did her lutzes in the opposite direction of her other jumps. I haven't seen enough pre-WWII skating to know whether that was typical of most skaters in that era.

Doing an existing jump in the other direction would also be a variation that could be added to today's figure skating repertoire, but it's still technically the same jump,

Right. And currently, there is no provision in the rules to give it more value even though it would be significantly more difficult for most skaters. I would love to see new rules introduced that would reward jumping in both directions commensurate with the difficulty. For practical purposes, it would probably be necessary to build in the reward only for jump combinations or sequences, because technical panels would have a hard time accurately keeping track of each skater's preferred jump direction for all the solo jumps.

and I'm more interested in something entirely new, if at all possible. Same with spins. Satoko Miyahara can spin in both directions but she doesn't add anything new to the spins themselves, or not that I'm aware of. Lucinda Ruh did some amazing spins but they were still just spins. Crazy spins but spins nevertheless.

It's pretty late in the game for anyone to come up with a brand-new basic type of skating element (as opposed to a non-skating element that can be done in skates, such as backflips). The original IJS rules included a bonus for brand-new types of elements, but no one ever showed one, only new variations of existing element types, so that bonus was eventually dropped from the rules.

I think most of the innovation we will see from here on will be new ways of combining and varying existing skills rather than inventing brand new types of skills.
 

bevybean

On the Ice
Joined
May 26, 2017
Not exactly.

It's true that (as far as I know), no one had ever landed a backflip on one foot previously. But the rules don't say anything about landing on one foot. They just say that "somersault type jumps" are illegal. As I understand, the main reason for banning them was because rewarding that kind of move would take skating into a direction of gymnastics on ice and away from edge-based skill -- the skills needed to flip vertically are irrelevant to the skills of blades curving on ice, whereas at least rotational jumps gain rotational momentum from the skater's control of the skating curves.

Landing on one foot combines the non-skating-related flipping skill with a skating-related landing skill, but it still doesn't root the move itself in skating technique.

I think Scott Hamilton or whoever made that commentary that you're referring to was legitimately impressed by the difficulty of what Bonaly achieved. But I don't think he was accurate in reflecting what the rules actually were.

Actually, I read an article last year that said in order to effectively ban backflips, a rule was added stating that jumps had to be landed on 1 foot. Then Bonaly landed her backflip on 1 foot so that it could still be included. After that the rule changed again stating that jumps could only be rotated vertically not horizontally. I'll try to find the article, but it was pretty old so I don't know that I'll be able to.
 
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