Height on jumps

lavenderblossom · Apr 13, 2018

Yuzuruu said:
I cannot believe the accuracy of this research having seen Boyang Jin live and hundreds of times on videos of course. Most of his jumps are really big and impressive, especially the 4L is just insane, how he got nearly to the bottom of the list baffles me.

I think one big issue with this list is no stats for distance or airtime. Boyang's jumps cover a lot of ice and really hang in the air which makes them look equally big or bigger than some of the high jumpers on this list.
He does have a very high 4Lz, second only to Kolyada.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Apr 13, 2018

russianfan said:
This time author has done some research on junior ladies.
Interesting that japanese and korean girls are leading at jumps height. Meanwhile russians have insane rotation speed, like Sofia Akatieva (10 yo, Eteri's group) - ridiculous 6+ rotations per second on triple(!) jumps.

Worth noting Trusova's rotational speed on her 3S - 5.04, vs. her 4S - 5.88. And Kihira's rotational speed on her 2A - 4.44, vs her 3A - 5.63. Look at that difference.

Then I think back to people suggesting certain skaters with relatively "slower" rotational speeds, like Osmond, will never be able to attempt or execute 3A or quads because they have "slower" rotation. If anything, lower rotational speed suggests a greater propensity to be able to execute the next highest jump of that type because there's actually room for the skater to rotate faster.

On the other hand, skaters with higher rotational speed do not seem as likely to do a 3A or quad because they are already having to rotate fast just to do the 2A/triple and would have to rotate even faster (unless they got a crazy amount of height when comparing the double/triple to the triple/quad). That's why when some say Akatieva is a candidate to land a quad I'm like but then she has rotate even faster than 6.12 rps (which is already super fast!).

chopinskate · Apr 13, 2018

How does this thread keep popping up out of nowhere?

Yuzuruu · Apr 13, 2018

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Worth noting Trusova's rotational speed on her 3S - 5.04, vs. her 4S - 5.88. And Kihira's rotational speed on her 2A - 4.44, vs her 3A - 5.63. Look at that difference.

Then I think back to people suggesting certain skaters with relatively "slower" rotational speeds, like Osmond, will never be able to attempt or execute 3A or quads because they have "slower" rotation. If anything, lower rotational speed suggests a greater propensity to be able to execute the next highest jump of that type because there's actually room for the skater to rotate faster.

On the other hand, skaters with higher rotational speed do not seem as likely to do a 3A or quad because they are already having to rotate fast just to do the 2A/triple and would have to rotate even faster (unless they got a crazy amount of height when comparing the double/triple to the triple/quad). That's why when some say Akatieva is a candidate to land a quad I'm like but then she has rotate even faster than 6.12 rps (which is already super fast!).

That is a very interesting point of view that I never considered, thank you for that!

Also I think Osmond could land a quad and it would be really spectacular if she did it with her great power and height that she gains on her jumps.

russianfan · Apr 13, 2018

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Worth noting Trusova's rotational speed on her 3S - 5.04, vs. her 4S - 5.88. And Kihira's rotational speed on her 2A - 4.44, vs her 3A - 5.63. Look at that difference.

Then I think back to people suggesting certain skaters with relatively "slower" rotational speeds, like Osmond, will never be able to attempt or execute 3A or quads because they have "slower" rotation. If anything, lower rotational speed suggests a greater propensity to be able to execute the next highest jump of that type because there's actually room for the skater to rotate faster.

On the other hand, skaters with higher rotational speed do not seem as likely to do a 3A or quad because they are already having to rotate fast just to do the 2A/triple and would have to rotate even faster (unless they got a crazy amount of height when comparing the double/triple to the triple/quad). That's why when some say Akatieva is a candidate to land a quad I'm like but then she has rotate even faster than 6.12 rps (which is already super fast!).

It's not like anyone can just easily increase their rotation speed by so much, just because some forum analytics think so. They can increase their speed because they have some reserve in that regard. I don't think this is the case with Osmond or any other senior. There are much more factors then just "one rotates slowly on triples -> one can increase their speed for quads". You'd better pay attention to how much Trusova/Kihira weigh and then to how much Osmond/other seniors weigh. Every kilogram will be crucial, and I'm sure almost any senior weighs more than these "quad juniors", so it will take way, way bigger effort to land a quad for any senior, especially if they never really practiced it. I understand that you want Osmond to do it, but it's just never gonna happen, unless she drastically loses weight and at the same time drastically increases her rotation speed while keeping jump height. So we can speculate how much we want about this, but it's not gonna go further than that. It's not even about Osmond. I think no one from current seniors will ever be able to jump a clean, fully rotated quad. Especially looking at how hard it is for Trusova, who has pretty much perfect physical parameters: supertiny body and extremely strong legs. May be there will be some attempts, very underrotated ones, but i highly doubt that anyone from current generation of seniors will ever do a quad. Triple axel, on the other hand, is slightly more realistic, while still very doubtful.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Apr 13, 2018

russianfan said:
It's not like anyone can just easily increase their rotation speed by so much, just because some forum analytics think so. They can increase their speed because they have some reserve in that regard. I don't think this is the case with Osmond or any other senior. There are much more factors then just "one rotates slowly on triples -> one can increase their speed for quads". You'd better pay attention to how much Trusova/Kihira weigh and then to how much Osmond/other seniors weigh. Every kilogram will be crucial, and I'm sure almost any senior weighs more than these "quad juniors", so it will take way, way bigger effort to land a quad for any senior, especially if they never really practiced it. I understand that you want Osmond to do it, but it's just never gonna happen, unless she drastically loses weigh and at the same time drastically increases her rotation speed while keeping jump height. So we can speculate how much we want about this, but it's not gonna go further than that. It's not even about Osmond. I think no one from current seniors will ever be able to jump a clean, fully rotated quad. Especially looking at how hard it is for Trusova, who has pretty much perfect physical parameters: supertiny body and extremely strong legs. May be there will be some attempts, very underrotated ones, but i highly doubt that anyone from current generation of seniors will ever do a quad. Triple axel, on the other hand, is slightly more realistic, while still very doubtful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aJlhZmCOYQ

russianfan · Apr 13, 2018

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aJlhZmCOYQ

Well, may be she could, but she never landed it in competition, so whatever. Also, do you see the tendency? She's also very tiny, with pretty much "junior-type" body, which simply confirms my post.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Apr 13, 2018

russianfan said:
Well, may be she could, but she never landed it in competition, so whatever. Also, do you see the tendency? She's also very tiny, with pretty much "junior-type" body, which simply confirms my post.

I was just addressing your assertion that no current senior skater is capable of doing it.

Also, regarding your dismissive "she never landed it in competition, so whatever" -- that sort of rhetoric is something you probably didn't enjoy when people were skeptical about Trusova's quads in practice translating to competition. I'm sure any of us could be like "Oh that's a nice 3A, Kostornaia or nice 4T Scherbakova, but they never landed it in competition, so whatever, let's just dismiss it.", which would be short-sighted and trivializing their hard work.

Also, look at the triple axel, women with a variety of body types have landed that jump -- not just tiny, junior-type bodies. There's more than one way to skin a cat, or in this case land a 3A/quad. Maybe actually see what happens in the off-season before dismissing this entire crop of senior ladies. After all, we probably thought no senior man could do 5 quads, until it actually happened - or was necessary to win. Now that Trusova has opened that bag, I'm sure we will see more ladies training quads, including the current group of skaters.

russianfan · Apr 13, 2018

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Also, regarding your dismissive "she never landed it in competition, so whatever" -- that sort of rhetoric is something you probably didn't enjoy when people were skeptical about Trusova's quads in practice translating to competition. I'm sure any of us could be like "Oh that's a nice 3A, Kostornaia or nice 4T Scherbakova, but they never landed it in competition, so whatever, let's just dismiss it.", which would be short-sighted and trivializing their hard work.

But they don't get titles or medals for doing it in training, right? So, whatever. Cool videos, impressive jumps, but they haven't yet landed them in competition, when it really counts. Btw i'm still very skeptical about Scherbakova's quads. Kostornaya has decent chances to land 3A in competition.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Apr 13, 2018

russianfan said:
But they don't get titles or medals for doing it in training, right? So, whatever. Cool videos, impressive jumps, but they haven't yet landed them in competition, when it really counts. Btw i'm still very skeptical about Scherbakova's quads. Kostornaya has decent chances to land 3A in competition.

Of course, in competition it really counts. But, correct me if I'm wrong, you were very optimistic about Trusova landing her quads - even created a thread about it. Didn't have a dismissive attitude about it like you are with the entire current senior field.

russianfan · Apr 13, 2018

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Of course, in competition it really counts. But, correct me if I'm wrong, you were very optimistic about Trusova landing her quads - even created a thread about it. Didn't have a dismissive attitude about it like you are with the entire current senior field.

Yes, because I thought that it's possible for her. And she landed them. I don't see potential for current crop of seniors, unfortunately. Would be cool if i'm wrong, but i don't believe in it.

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 13, 2018

russianfan said:
Yes, because I thought that it's possible for her. And she landed them. I don't see potential for current crop of seniors, unfortunately.

At one point I would have thought that maybe Gabby could pull off a 4t but I’ve kind of got the impression that her 3t-3t isn’t as big as it once was. I wouldn’t completely rule it out though. She’s a very strong skater with a lot of fight. Sometimes that little chip on the shoulder of being overshadowed at home can work wonders for motivation.

I also think if Karen Chen went into “Send It Mode” she has enough to pull off a 4z. It’s huge. Ditch that 3z-3t girl and start sending the quad! :clapper:

I do think it’s probably better to learn it at a younger age and try to hold onto it going into seniors though. Just like every other jump

gkelly · Apr 13, 2018

A few general questions:

Is it easier for a skater wanting to add a revolution to an existing consistent jump to increase the air time or to increase the rotational speed?

It may be easier for girls to learn (triples or) quads before their major growth spurt. Assuming no serious injuries, is a girl who learns difficult jumps while still small and then grows significantly taller and/or curvier more or less likely to still be able to do these jumps in her adult body than a skater who tries learning new jumps after settling into the adult body? Or is it likely that the only senior-aged female skaters able to perform triple axels or quads will always be exceptions with unusual body types even within the narrow range of elite skater body types?

russianfan · Apr 13, 2018

gkelly said:
Is it easier for a skater wanting to add a revolution to an existing consistent jump to increase the air time or to increase the rotational speed?

I think it depends on skater. As the guy in that article pointed out, Trusova drastically increases her rotation speed on 4S in comparison with 3S(almost +1 revolution). On the other hand, Gulyakova drastically increases her jump height on 3A attempts (about +20 cm). So it probably can work either way...

russianfan · Apr 13, 2018

Sam-Skwantch said:
At one point I would have thought that maybe Gabby could pull off a 4t but I’ve kind of got the impression that her 3t-3t isn’t as big as it once was. I wouldn’t completely rule it out though. She’s a very strong skater with a lot of fight. Sometimes that little chip on the shoulder of being overshadowed at home can work wonders for motivation.

I also think if Karen Chen went into “Send It Mode” she has enough to pull off a 4z. It’s huge. Ditch that 3z-3t girl and start sending the quad! :clapper:

I do think it’s probably better to learn it at a younger age and try to hold onto it going into seniors though. Just like every other jump

Well, if i would ever bet on a quad among current seniors, that would probably be either of them(Daleman/Chen). Don't want to lose my money though :biggrin:

Li'Kitsu · Apr 13, 2018

lavenderblossom said:
I think one big issue with this list is no stats for distance or airtime. Boyang's jumps cover a lot of ice and really hang in the air which makes them look equally big or bigger than some of the high jumpers on this list.
He does have a very high 4Lz, second only to Kolyada.

Yes, it would be amazing if getting data about ice coverage would be possible too, but I don't think there is any method for that like there is for height, that can be used relatively easily.
The guy from performance live had all the 4Lz's from Boyang, Yuzu and Mika analyzed I think, and while for height the order was Mika > Yuzu > Boyang, it was the other way around for ice coverage, with Boyang having the "longest" jump. On the list, a good part of the guys ahead of Boyang are high jumpers, but I think cover less ice with them (Mika, Takahito, Daniel, Maxim). That isn't necessarily better or worse IMO, just different. All of them have big jumps with good height/ice coverage in general.

bubblecherry · Apr 13, 2018

Love Karen's 3 lutz and 2 axel. Truly believe she could get another rotation on each with some time spent with a jump specialist.

Overall, nothing too shocking here. Love to see the people with beautiful height and distance as well as the ones with mediocre height/distance who have more consistency. I can find beauty in both.

Rina Rin · Apr 14, 2018

Poor Kovtun. Author mercilessly mocked him. :rofl:

If you ever wanted to see Maxim Kovtun at the top of some pathos list with a beautiful design, then here it is-your finest hour.
Quad toeloop Maxim without options won. His best attempt at a very sh....bad video with 25 fps (TH-17) generally is 74.5 cm (worst slightly less than 69), but the jump also not particularly stable, not only in height. Periodically Maxim loses two turns out of four.Hmm, it feels like star watch Kovtun are too often repeated. But if you already for some reason, it became annoying, then don't worry - in the next three ratings he is absent.

Spirals for Miles · Apr 16, 2018

Does anyone have data for Akatieva's jump height and rps?
And Berestovskaya's, from the 4T attempt?

alvina9894 · Apr 16, 2018

Spirals for Miles said:
Does anyone have data for Akatieva's jump height and rps?
And Berestovskaya's, from the 4T attempt?

Here is a summary of Akatieva's air time. I then derived the jump height assuming g=9.81
https://i.loli.net/2018/04/16/5ad4bf8f59d70.png

3Lz - 510ms - 31.94cm
3F - 488ms - 29.18cm
3Lo - 460ms - 25.95cm
3S - 460ms - 25.95cm
3T - 460ms - 25.93cm
2A - 501ms - 30.80cm

Note that airtime for -3T in 2A3T (520,500,433) is significantly better than that of 3Lz3T (440,433,433)

Height on jumps

lavenderblossom

CanadianSkaterGuy

chopinskate

Yuzuruu

the silent assassin

russianfan

Match Penalty

CanadianSkaterGuy

russianfan

Match Penalty

CanadianSkaterGuy

russianfan

Match Penalty

CanadianSkaterGuy

russianfan

Match Penalty

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

gkelly

russianfan

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russianfan

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Li'Kitsu

bubblecherry

Rina Rin

Spirals for Miles

Anna Shcherbakova is my World Champion

alvina9894

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