Kostner's plan for the Lutz in 2018? | Page 19 | Golden Skate

Kostner's plan for the Lutz in 2018?

Seren

Wakabond Forever
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2014
It is not about looking easy. When I watch FS, i expect to see stuff. Not just jumps, but you know, things. Long setups basically mean that the skater spends 1/5th or so of their program skating through the rink doing absolutely nothing. It hurts interpretation. It hurts choreo. It hurts performance. It hurts transitions.

Also, you guys say it like one cannot have a perfect Lutz without having a long setup, which is absolutely not true (as there are several ladies who do perfect Lutzes just fine without all that).

I think both can be choreographically beautiful- neither is "horrible". The long set up is difficult as it requires the mastery to hold the clean outside edge- and it can be really powerful if used to accent a build up in the music or highlight edge quality. That said, faster and more complicated entries are also great- they can also fit perfectly into choreography. And it is easier to hide a flutz with more entry steps.

Basically when executed correctly and integrated into the choreography they can both be great.
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
I think both can be choreographically beautiful- neither is "horrible". The long set up is difficult as it requires the mastery to hold the clean outside edge- and it can be really powerful if used to accent a build up in the music or highlight edge quality. That said, faster and more complicated entries are also great- they can also fit perfectly into choreography. And it is easier to hide a flutz with more entry steps.

Basically when executed correctly and integrated into the choreography they can both be great.

I agree, but not when the skater does it for each and every jump. I see how it can be powerful before some quad maybe, because it is a high impact element.
People here seem to praise long glides basically because they are long glides and long glides are awesome.

I´m yet to see someone link a video of some good example of a choreographically justified long glide.
 

JSM

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 11, 2011
A spiral is an example of a long glide - just with the leg higher than the hip. A deeper edge, whether on a spiral or a lutz entrance, or coming out of a turn like a counter, for example, is more difficult and shows greater mastery of the blade.

All can be choreographically justified.
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
A spiral is an example of a long glide - just with the leg higher than the hip. A deeper edge, whether on a spiral or a lutz entrance, or coming out of a turn like a counter, for example, is more difficult and shows greater mastery of the blade.

All can be choreographically justified.

Well, interested in seeing spiral into jump entries, as we were talking specifically about the rink-long setups with 0 things going on during them.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Well, interested in seeing spiral into jump entries, as we were talking specifically about the rink-long setups with 0 things going on during them.

Well, there's this, though with a change of foot etc. between the long glide and the takeoff.

But for a straight back outside spiral directly on the takeoff edge with free leg lifted behind, how do you practice that safely on a crowded freestyle session, leading with the blade without being able to see who's behind you?
 

lappo

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 12, 2016
Maybe this could be another example, albeit shorter and with a change of foot (at the time, if I remember correctly, the spiral sequence was still a required element in the SP, so it should be easier to find more examples in that period, maybe also held for a longer time such as the one posted above): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZAvsv93ZFM (starting at 1:46, sorry I never remember how to stop the videos...:( )
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Does it affect the difficulty that, with the long set-up, your momentum is headed in the direction opposite of the jump rotation, whereas with the quick change to the outside edge the rest of your body might not actually be moving in the opposite direction of rotation (which I always thought was why the lutz was the hardest of triples aside from the axel)? I don't know enough about the physics of the newly popular lutz entry to understand that.
 

Globetrotter

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
It is not about looking easy. When I watch FS, i expect to see stuff. Not just jumps, but you know, things. Long setups basically mean that the skater spends 1/5th or so of their program skating through the rink doing absolutely nothing. It hurts interpretation. It hurts choreo. It hurts performance. It hurts transitions.

Also, you guys say it like one cannot have a perfect Lutz without having a long setup, which is absolutely not true (as there are several ladies who do perfect Lutzes just fine without all that).

Uh uh, I think you have misinterpreted. I never said that the perfect lutz has to come out of a long setup. I simply countered that a long glide also has its own beauty and is arguably as difficult in a more subtle way as with shorter approach full of steps. In the end, it is just how the skater uses the music and choreo to match rather than simply just a short glide and preceding steps is better. For example, I love Liza Tuks solo 3Lz out of choctaw entry in her 2015 worlds SP as her confidence was great, paired with very clean technique and matched to the music without looking overly busy. Similarly, I appreciate the long glide approach in Maria B’s Worlds 1999 FS where it matched the musical cadence to Otonal and to a lesser extent, how CaroK paired her lutz to the long pause in Sochi’s Bolero FS. Both have their beauty and difficulty with the shorter glide method better able to showcase transitions and the long glide for basic skating skills.
 

treeloving

Medalist
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Kostner outside edge (especially with her old technique) is incredibly depth compare to other podium contender. It is so clear that it is hard to understand why some fail to recognize that.
 

Globetrotter

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
Does it affect the difficulty that, with the long set-up, your momentum is headed in the direction opposite of the jump rotation, whereas with the quick change to the outside edge the rest of your body might not actually be moving in the opposite direction of rotation (which I always thought was why the lutz was the hardest of triples aside from the axel)? I don't know enough about the physics of the newly popular lutz entry to understand that.

You have just got it with the counter. With the long glide, the counter rotation momentum is sustained longer and thus the skater needs to either exert more upper body strength to rotate or vault straight up with a delay in rotation to overcome the counter. It is something that is less obviously difficult unless you skate and have tried it for yourself.
 

chairmanmao

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 10, 2013
It is not about looking easy. When I watch FS, i expect to see stuff. Not just jumps, but you know, things. Long setups basically mean that the skater spends 1/5th or so of their program skating through the rink doing absolutely nothing. It hurts interpretation. It hurts choreo. It hurts performance. It hurts transitions.

Also, you guys say it like one cannot have a perfect Lutz without having a long setup, which is absolutely not true (as there are several ladies who do perfect Lutzes just fine without all that).

I'm with you on this. I despise that long glide. Very amateurish. Imagine Hanyu, Chan and Fernandez doing that in their programs. The judges would probably roll their eyes. The good news is those three have high standards so they put choreo and steps not just with their lutz but all of their jumps. Ladies should follow suit.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
I just watched Carolina's Free Skate at Nats. I do think she has a mature artistry which is beautiful but at least in this skate I found her jumps very telegraphed and honestly I don't know the word but a bit labored or not as powerful as say Rochette, Osmond or even the young Russians. I know she appears long limbed but there is something about her entrance into the jumps and exits they are not as clean or as powerful as say Osmond or others.
 

Putina

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 31, 2017
I could see her doing both 3Lz and 3F+3T in the FS. If not, I think she should repeat the 3Lz in the FS to differentiate herself with the rest. I do not think anyone can catch her even with backloading. All of her jumps are textbook quality and those smooth glides in landing are refreshing to watch in this day and night when everyone else's jumps are so laborious.
 
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