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- Nov 2, 2013
Pops are flaws...
Kostner's plan for the Lutz in 2018?
- Thread starter daphna
- Start date
Pops are flaws...
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2013
Nope.
She can skate without any jumps or spins at all and still get the PCs.
You take points off for a mistake. Doing different content than your planned one changes only the BV (and GOE if the content is done good or bad) - but the changes itself is meaningless.
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- Aug 25, 2017
Lol then why do dictionaries define mistake as an error in action? If a pop isn't an error then why doesn't every skater just "pop" their triples into singles to make them easier to land?
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2013
Lol then why do dictionaries define mistake as an error in action? If a pop isn't an error then why doesn't every skater just "pop" their triples into singles to make them easier to land?
Because it lowers the BV and they need it for the TES.
Should a pop warrant a minus GOE? No...
If a skater plans to do a 3Lz-3T and instead does a 3Lz-2T should he automatically get negative GOE for the combo? No!
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- Nov 2, 2013
That depends on whether it's a planned change or a pop, I guess. But usually there is a reason you would pop, and usually it affects the jump itself.
Actually, if you pop without any issues, that's not a very good look. Why not just do the triple instead there?
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- Aug 25, 2017
Never knew that errors, because they ARE errors, should translate to good GOEs...
seems to me that if you make a mistake, you're not executing the jump/combo well. Plus that pop might impact the height/distance, flow, and exit transitions of the jump. So yeah, I'd give it negative GOE.
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- Mar 31, 2013
Never knew that errors, because they ARE errors, should translate to good GOEs...
seems to me that if you make a mistake, you're not executing the jump/combo well. Plus that pop might impact the height/distance, flow, and exit transitions of the jump. So yeah, I'd give it negative GOE.
I think that you can execute a jump well even with a pop.
And besides how judges are supposed to know what you planned to do anyway?
If someone decides to land a beautiful clean fully rotated 4Sal, should we give it automatically -3 GOE because it wasn't in the planned content?
The same logic applies here...
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Never knew that errors, because they ARE errors, should translate to good GOEs...
seems to me that if you make a mistake, you're not executing the jump/combo well. Plus that pop might impact the height/distance, flow, and exit transitions of the jump. So yeah, I'd give it negative GOE.
I think the rules are pretty clear about that. If you plan a 3T but execute a 2T, the GOE is applied to the jump you actually perform, not the one that you intended to perform.
Having executed a 2T, you get the base value for a 2T. The GOE is then judged by the criteria specified in the rules -- height and distance, flowing exit edge, etc. So it is possible to get positive GOE (at the scale for a 2T -- i.e., not very much).
In practice, this happens only rarely because the 2T is usually not a very good one.
^Yes.
It seems to me that popped jumps usually score between -1 and +1 GOE.
They often have good height and distance and good speed in and out if approached as an intended triple or quad. So if nothing else goes wrong aside from fewer rotations than planned, +1 is appropriate.
Often there's a bad air position if the skater fails to pull in and the limbs flail a bit. If if it's only slightly weak, or weak enough position to deduct for combined with good height/distance and speed, then judges could end up at 0.
If there was a problem with the takeoff technique or timing that prevented getting good height or lost some speed and the air position was weak, or if the air position was really bad, then -1 would be most likely.
But not all pops are equal, so some (especially nice clean doubles in freeskates that everyone knows were planned as triples but look better than most clean planned doubles at lower levels) will get mostly +1, some will get mostly 0, and some will get mostly -1.
Obviously if there are other problems like breaking forward with or without hand down, step out, etc., then the GOE would end up less than -1.
And of course in short programs if at least a triple or double is required but the skater only executes double or single, then they get no points under the current SP rules.
It seems to me that popped jumps usually score between -1 and +1 GOE.
They often have good height and distance and good speed in and out if approached as an intended triple or quad. So if nothing else goes wrong aside from fewer rotations than planned, +1 is appropriate.
Often there's a bad air position if the skater fails to pull in and the limbs flail a bit. If if it's only slightly weak, or weak enough position to deduct for combined with good height/distance and speed, then judges could end up at 0.
If there was a problem with the takeoff technique or timing that prevented getting good height or lost some speed and the air position was weak, or if the air position was really bad, then -1 would be most likely.
But not all pops are equal, so some (especially nice clean doubles in freeskates that everyone knows were planned as triples but look better than most clean planned doubles at lower levels) will get mostly +1, some will get mostly 0, and some will get mostly -1.
Obviously if there are other problems like breaking forward with or without hand down, step out, etc., then the GOE would end up less than -1.
And of course in short programs if at least a triple or double is required but the skater only executes double or single, then they get no points under the current SP rules.
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- Aug 25, 2017
Ah okay that makes more sense
Typically the pops look uglier so yeah more used to that.
Typically the pops look uglier so yeah more used to that.
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- Jul 9, 2014
Here's my question having not seen her performance.....Did she attempt more than 4 triples?? If she planned to do 4 triples and landed them with high GOE, then I don't see a problem. However, if she attempted 6 triples and either popped or doubled them, she was definitely held up...
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
She had a fall on the 3S, but landing the 3Lz was a great achievement. She sort of runs out of steam towards the end of her LPs and that's when most of her errors usually occur. Caro will be a big wildcard at the Olympics, and she could put out a great event out of nowhere, as she did in Sochi.
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- Nov 2, 2013
Fall on 3S, she also performed a 2S and hence had zero combo triples.
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- Jul 9, 2014
I agree....We also need to remember that Caro has very little outside pressure when she's in Italy. She may put pressure on herself but as a World Champion, Olympic Medalist, 5 time European, and 8 time and defending National Champion of Italy, it would be a crime not to hold her up in reasonable any way they can.
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- Mar 15, 2014
I already gushed about her lutz technique at the beginning of this thread (and frankly, in every other related discussion, whenever I get a chance). But I just want to take the opportunity again to express how much I appreciate her lutz. A pure, top-notch 3A (like Hanyu's) or 3Lz (like Kolyada's) has the power to move me to tears with its beauty and athleticism. For me Caro's 3Lz ranks among the top of such impressive jumps from any female skater in history.
Why don't we just forget about scoring, GOEs, pops, how many triples landed... for a moment and enjoy the beauty of this jump from today: https://imgflip.com/gif/217o7a
And this is her at Sochi in 2014: https://imgflip.com/gif/217paf
Why don't we just forget about scoring, GOEs, pops, how many triples landed... for a moment and enjoy the beauty of this jump from today: https://imgflip.com/gif/217o7a
And this is her at Sochi in 2014: https://imgflip.com/gif/217paf
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
I think this thread is created to discuss Kostner's jumping plan. If one want to complain about her pcs at national why not do it at competition thread?
Btw, on general, pop and pcs shouldn't be correlated.
Btw, on general, pop and pcs shouldn't be correlated.
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2012
Are we really discussing the PCS she received at NATIONALS? 
A competition in which Giada Russo received 62 and in which Adelina and Liza were receiving high 8s and 9s already back in 2013 when internationally they would get 7s and low 8s and so and so...
A competition in which Giada Russo received 62 and in which Adelina and Liza were receiving high 8s and 9s already back in 2013 when internationally they would get 7s and low 8s and so and so...
Good to see the 3lz. Need more work to do 6 others clean triples. I don't think she will go for 3lz + 3F-3T in the FS. She didn't do that at Sochi.To be clean with her six triples it's hard for her, so 7 triples will be more hard. But if she want to give me less reasons to complain about her absolutely undeserved TES, i'm ok.
Why not? Pops are usually disruptive to performance: since jumps tend to match some musical highlights, you have all the build up for a jump, both musical and choreographic, and then *pop* nothing happens, which is quite disruptive.
