Kostner's plan for the Lutz in 2018? | Page 18 | Golden Skate

Kostner's plan for the Lutz in 2018?

FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
Why not? Pops are usually disruptive to performance: since jumps tend to match some musical highlights, you have all the build up for a jump, both musical and choreographic, and then *pop* nothing happens, which is quite disruptive.
They usually are, but not always: among the many example, one that can be brought up (and that is particularly on-topic) is Caro's 2012 Worlds FS, in which she popped a 3F into a double, arguably without doing any damage to the performance, choreography or interpretation of the program
 

treeloving

Medalist
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Why not? Pops are usually disruptive to performance: since jumps tend to match some musical highlights, you have all the build up for a jump, both musical and choreographic, and then *pop* nothing happens, which is quite disruptive.

That why I wrote "in general" , it is depend on how the pop look as well. For example, if Hanyu did 3A-2T combo instead of 3A-3T, as long as the jump look good, I would not consider that as disruptive.
 

Globetrotter

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
It really is disgusting when you actually stop to think about it.

Oh dear, your bias is clearly showing to the extent you are willing to overlook all evidence for and against. Bland and same facial expression.... well someone skated to a Anna Karenina which is a Russian melodrama prose with smiley open mouth doe eyed look as always. She’s the best to you. When your faves get +3 GOEs for using tricks and difficult entries and exits but with heavily muscled out jumps and little cheated rotations, oh they have such difficult entries, +3 perfectly justified. Hmm perhaps some judges think that solid technique, good lift, distance and flow throughout matters as much as tanos and rippon tricks? And that deep edges, flow and turns deserves high SS and that transitions using the upper body done in quality can also be matched up against quantity? That subtle nuance and interpretation can be appreciated by some?

But then, the human mind is selective isn’t it? See only the good things. Anyway this thread is about CaroK’s getting back the 3Lz, not a bash on her scores. Good for her but I will still hold any judgment until seeing how all her other 6 jump passes hold up. Good effort at Nats but the FS was a mess in the end when she clearly lost focus on the combo and checked out too late and fell on the 3S. Not yet convinced at this stage but if by some miracle she can get all her jumps done clean, no pops no mess, well she sure will be in the mix for a silver.
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
That why I wrote "in general" , it is depend on how the pop look as well. For example, if Hanyu did 3A-2T combo instead of 3A-3T, as long as the jump look good, I would not consider that as disruptive.

In general means majority of cases, with only rare cases when the pop affects the performance.
I disagree: MOST pops affect the performance, and there are very few cases when a pop does not affect the performance.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
If "pop" means opening up on/immediately after the takeoff of a jump rather than pulling in, usually resulting in a single rotation, then I agree most of them look like mistakes and negatively affect the performance to some degree.

If you're also using the word to apply to cases when skaters intentionally double planned triples (or single planned double axels), or it happens unintentionally through fatigue or distraction but the resulting jump is just as well controlled as and often bigger than the average double jump or single axel, then I would disagree.

But in the latter case, I would usually say the skater "doubled" (or "singled") the jump, not that they popped it.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I have a question about her lutz. I noticed that she now enters the jump like many of the Russian women, rather than the traditional entrance she used to do. I was surprised about this change in technique so late in her career. Is this change one that makes the jump easier, or is it more about making the entrance difficult to earn higher GOE?
 

penguin

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
I'm not sure if it's considered a more difficult entry, but I wonder if it enables her to get into the lutz with a quicker setup. Her old lutz, while beautiful, had that really long entrance glide that the current system disfavors.
 

Sk8swan

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 31, 2004
I have a question about her lutz. I noticed that she now enters the jump like many of the Russian women, rather than the traditional entrance she used to do. I was surprised about this change in technique so late in her career. Is this change one that makes the jump easier, or is it more about making the entrance difficult to earn higher GOE?

Left aside Carolina got back cause she just loves skating and challenges, aiming to push herself towards the best of her own self... it's clear nothing was "left up to fate" but everything was planned into details when she decided to come back. Being very aware of the judging system, I'm sure both her and her team worked so that she could maximise the points she could get with her performance, including reworking her technique. The path could not be rushed cause she's 30 yrs old and not 15 and you really need to listen to your body and take care of it at such age (teens should do that too, but that's a different subject!). In that I think no one can argue she's the only one in the history of the sport who has managed to 'rework herself' and get back to a such high level at such an 'old' age.
 

Globetrotter

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
I'm not sure if it's considered a more difficult entry, but I wonder if it enables her to get into the lutz with a quicker setup. Her old lutz, while beautiful, had that really long entrance glide that the current system disfavors.

It’s all to do with the prevailing judging preference. In the 6.0 days, the long setup was considered a good lutz. Under CoP judging, a shorter setup is favored as it allows the skater to perform some footwork and gain +GOE. Whether it is telegraphed or not with that long backward glide is really effy and totally at the discretion of judges. Not surprising that so many skaters have now ditched that approach. That backward glide on a clear outside edge sustained on one foot is actually pretty difficult - not many ladies have the basic edge work that can hold that back outside edge and deepen it on take off. In the past, those who took a long glide in their lutz set up like Gracie Gold or Shizuka Arakawa, all had very obvious strong SS like CaroK. IMO, that may not score GOE tech wise but can be arguably rewarded as part of SS for demonstrating good edge work.
 

ask

Match Penalty
Joined
Oct 20, 2017
I love a long glide into the lutz. Clear as day the edge take off.
Most of the current girls cannot do this. Ask Medvedeva. She wouldn't be able to do it in 100 years.
 

Globetrotter

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
I love a long glide into the lutz. Clear as day the edge take off.
Most of the current girls cannot do this. Ask Medvedeva. She wouldn't be able to do it in 100 years.

Come on, no need to be snarky about this. The thread is on the 3Lz and specifically on CaroK's lutz jump, not a Zhenya critique.
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
I love a long glide into the lutz. Clear as day the edge take off.
Most of the current girls cannot do this. Ask Medvedeva. She wouldn't be able to do it in 100 years.

And thanks god most of the current girls dont do it. Those long glides are horrible and boring.
 

FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
I love a long glide into the lutz. Clear as day the edge take off.
Most of the current girls cannot do this. Ask Medvedeva. She wouldn't be able to do it in 100 years.

It’s all to do with the prevailing judging preference. In the 6.0 days, the long setup was considered a good lutz. Under CoP judging, a shorter setup is favored as it allows the skater to perform some footwork and gain +GOE. Whether it is telegraphed or not with that long backward glide is really effy and totally at the discretion of judges. Not surprising that so many skaters have now ditched that approach. That backward glide on a clear outside edge sustained on one foot is actually pretty difficult - not many ladies have the basic edge work that can hold that back outside edge and deepen it on take off. In the past, those who took a long glide in their lutz set up like Gracie Gold or Shizuka Arakawa, all had very obvious strong SS like CaroK. IMO, that may not score GOE tech wise but can be arguably rewarded as part of SS for demonstrating good edge work.
I love a long, clean set-up, too! It makes me think of Tonya Harding, Nancy Kerrigan, Michelle Kwan etc etc, and (most important of all) shows the quality of the take-off edge really well: you can't hide a flutz when you're spending several seconds on one foot trying to reach the perfect outside edge. In general, I find it quite frustrating how the system favours jumps preceeded by steps always and invariably: in many cases, long preparations created a build-up atmosphere that had nothing to do with telegraphing a jump, since the latter interrupts the programs and does damage to the coreography, while the former gave an incredible wow-factor to the excitement or the disappointment.
 

Globetrotter

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
And thanks god most of the current girls dont do it. Those long glides are horrible and boring.

Beg to differ on the boring part. It just looks easy but most current girls will not have the edge work to do it, let alone deepen the edge while facing a bigger counter-rotation momentum compared to a shorter quicker set. This setup actually requires stronger basic techniques. When done well, a true outside edge lutz out of a classical long glide is beautiful - Shizuka Arakawa and especially Maria Butyrskaya had lovely classical lutzes off very deep and true outside edge.
 

Ares

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Country
Poland
I love a long, clean set-up, too! It makes me think of Tonya Harding, Nancy Kerrigan, Michelle Kwan etc etc, and (most important of all) shows the quality of the take-off edge really well: you can't hide a flutz when you're spending several seconds on one foot trying to reach the perfect outside edge. In general, I find it quite frustrating how the system favours jumps preceeded by steps always and invariably: in many cases, long preparations created a build-up atmosphere that had nothing to do with telegraphing a jump, since the latter interrupts the programs and does damage to the coreography, while the former gave an incredible wow-factor to the excitement or the disappointment.
Yeah, I also much preferred this technique, usually more beautiful to watch and the jump resulting was often bigger with exciting suspense on the entry that was usually smartly used with musical effect. For me it also highlights skating skills somewhat. I think you need solid basics to glide on one foot for longer time and you can't cheat rotation on the entry like some now can defying the physics.
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
Beg to differ on the boring part. It just looks easy but most current girls will not have the edge work to do it, let alone deepen the edge while facing a bigger counter-rotation momentum compared to a shorter quicker set. This setup actually requires stronger basic techniques. When done well, a true outside edge lutz out of a classical long glide is beautiful - Shizuka Arakawa and especially Maria Butyrskaya had lovely classical lutzes off very deep and true outside edge.

It is not about looking easy. When I watch FS, i expect to see stuff. Not just jumps, but you know, things. Long setups basically mean that the skater spends 1/5th or so of their program skating through the rink doing absolutely nothing. It hurts interpretation. It hurts choreo. It hurts performance. It hurts transitions.

Also, you guys say it like one cannot have a perfect Lutz without having a long setup, which is absolutely not true (as there are several ladies who do perfect Lutzes just fine without all that).
 

Roast Toast

Medalist
Joined
Apr 13, 2017
It is not about looking easy. When I watch FS, i expect to see stuff. Not just jumps, but you know, things. Long setups basically mean that the skater spends 1/5th or so of their program skating through the rink doing absolutely nothing. It hurts interpretation. It hurts choreo. It hurts performance. It hurts transitions.

Also, you guys say it like one cannot have a perfect Lutz without having a long setup, which is absolutely not true (as there are several ladies who do perfect Lutzes just fine without all that).

I think for me the issue is that the system universally rewards steps + short setups for all jumps because it assumes they are automatically more difficult, even though we have seen some athletes hide flutzes behind preceding steps. I also disagree that an entry on a held, deep edge is choreographically insignificant.
 

ask

Match Penalty
Joined
Oct 20, 2017
Long set up for lutz can be part of the choreo. It also shows the ability to hold edge, which is a big part of skating skills.
Only the lutz jump qualifies for this.
 
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