Kostner's plan for the Lutz in 2018?

Purv · Nov 11, 2017

Ender said:
I am sure had Yuna Kim had to do the 3Loop to win Vancouver, she would have trained it. The rule of those days allowed her to pass the 3Loop. That’s all.

But Yuna Kim still scored 148 with only 6 triples. Why are people attacking Carolina Kostner for not having a Lutz for now?

Only?
You cannot compare it ,anyway .What we take after comsideration? Number of triples or having under/over scored points with or without lutz??Two different matter
If Evgenia.s underotations were called ,her score even was not 140 ,and overal she would ber a skater with 6 or 5 triples

Ender · Nov 11, 2017

yyyskate said:
even without 3loop, Yuna's TES slayed the competition.

Can CaroK without lutz's TES be competitive with the competition? That is the question mark.

As long as CaroK wins competition with decent TES, just decent, nobody will attack her. And nobody will care about what kinda jumps she put out there as long as it is within the rule book and GOE not too outrageous.

Simple, Carolina Kostner’s GOE are being viewed as as good as Yuna Kim.

drivingmissdaisy · Nov 11, 2017

ask said:
It´s a shame someone miming a ridiculous SP and then a LP are coming that close to Kostner. How is Polina´s PCS so high out of the gate with really terrible programs, terrible choreo, terrible and basic interpretation?

Polina shouldn't come close to a clean Kostner, but Caro's technical level at NHK was so far below what's she is capable of. Her programs are beautiful, but this is an athletic competition. Caro's programs at NHK would not have been competitive for the Worlds podium as far back as 1991.

penguin · Nov 11, 2017

I don't think you can compare Yuna not doing 3Loop to Carolina not doing 3Lutz. Lutz is demonstrably harder to do than loop, and because Yuna did harder jumps (and her 3Lz-3t combo was so outstanding), there was no question about her not being in top form. People didn't think she wasn't doing 3Loop because she was incapable of doing the jump. (And, as people said, she used to jump it earlier in her career.)

Carolina had a beautiful 3Lz so there's still the possibility she will get it back and make the question moot. But if she DOESN'T get it back, the implication is that she doesn't have it because it's too hard for her, and that lends itself to the perception that she's not fully "back in form" yet. So I do think that not having a 3Lutz for Carolina is worse than Yuna not having 3Loop.

Sam-Skwantch · Nov 11, 2017

Real Talk: TES > PCS

I'm not afraid to say that a reasonable scoring system for an Olympic Sport should be able to make the basic distinction that Polina's Technical production to the level of what she brought to NHK should outscore Caro's "artistic" production here. If Caro is going to water down and go without a Lutz (a required jump on the JUNIOR Grand Prix) that's fine.... but she needs to be held to the same standards as the rest of the field and maybe even a tad more. Honestly.....Polina's PCS deficiencies are nowhere near the level of Caro's quantifiable TES deficiency. I love Caro but these scores need to be addressed.

If she is clean then Caro should be a medal contender anywhere for any podium but she needs to face as much and arguably more scrutiny than anyone on TES for having such a low level risk. Especially if we want to return the favor to youngsters and their PCS. Polina's scores seemed fine to me BTW.

We have established that she isn't even trying a 3-3 and it's intentional right? I think she would Zayak if either of her 3-2 were to become 3-3. She is already repeating 3S and 3F IIRC.

Ender · Nov 11, 2017

penguin said:
I don't think you can compare Yuna not doing 3Loop to Carolina not doing 3Lutz. Lutz is demonstrably harder to do than loop, and because Yuna did harder jumps (and her 3Lz-3t combo was so outstanding), there was no question about her not being in top form. People didn't think she wasn't doing 3Loop because she was incapable of doing the jump. (And, as people said, she used to jump it earlier in her career.)

Carolina had a beautiful 3Lz so there's still the possibility she will get it back and make the question moot. But if she DOESN'T get it back, the implication is that she doesn't have it because it's too hard for her, and that lends itself to the perception that she's not fully "back in form" yet. So I do think that not having a 3Lutz for Carolina is worse than Yuna not having 3Loop.

Kostner had her 3lz longer than Yuna Kim’s career.

Yuna Kim at age 19 didn’t do 3loop and never regain it.

Had the rule of those days stated that “You must have 7 triples to score above 140”, I am sure Yuna Kim would never ditch 3loop.

Simple, she didn’t need 3Loop to win because judges were showering her with huge GOE. What’s so different from Kostner didn’t need 3lz to medal because judges keep showering her with GOE. And if you talk about the flow and extension out of the jumps they land well, I am sure to say Kostner has the best flow even now.

Yuna Kim before 2008 did try 3loop and still medaled. Yuna Kim after 2008 ditched 3Loop and often won. Talk about slaying the TES? She got much more GOE than the rest. Same as Kostner.

Note that I don’t agree with Kostner got some medals over others but it’s pretty funny to criticize her layout and say that she doesn’t deserve her PCS because of her layout.

ask · Nov 11, 2017

Basic girls who think their PCS should be higher than 60 is ridiculous. Carolina honed her artistic for 15 years longer than the other girls. That is worth at least 20 points higher than Polina T.
If Polina wants to beat carolina, she will need her to make some mistakes. If she wants to take out carolina, she will need 3A, quad. It is not like she's done anything more than some ladies from the 80s. Her TES isn't that amazing and advance compare to Kristi, Tonya, Midori, all in the 80s and early 90s. No advance in TES, and basic PCS, she should score way lower.

Sam-Skwantch · Nov 11, 2017

ask said:
Basic girls who think their PCS should be higher than 60 is ridiculous. Carolina honed her artistic for 15 years longer than the other girls. That is worth at least 20 points higher than Polina T.
If Polina wants to beat carolina, she will need her to make some mistakes. If she wants to take out carolina, she will need 3A, quad. It is not like she's done anything more than some ladies from the 80s. Her TES isn't that amazing and advance compare to Kristi, Tonya, Midori, all in the 80s and early 90s. No advance in TES, and basic PCS, she should score way lower.

1992 called....they want their logic back

Be Kind...Rewind

In all seriousness please...show me via actual numbers how you would score Caro 20pts higher than Polina here.

Polina would need something like 6’s or lower in each component while Caro would get straight 10’s? Is that how you see it?

bobbob · Nov 11, 2017

Give Kostner a break...her technical isn't that bad...maybe she won't do a lutz just yet but I know she won't put it in unless it's got perfect technique. So if we were to get technical...Evgenia, Osmond, (many more) don't have a lutz either...they do a modified flip that looks enough like a lutz to get credit. Carolina probably has more dignity than trying to trick the judges into giving her credit. Generally, if you can do a flip you can do a flutz, but not necessarily a proper lutz.

And Caro did have a 3-3 in her long last year but there's no point in putting it in without a lutz. So her only issue is that she doesn't want to put a flutz in the program like many others do...

Anyways, I think if Caro goes clean with her current jump content, she can get a silver.

Leonardo · Nov 11, 2017

Kostner doesn't have to do even 5 triples, let alone a lutz to be on the olympic podium...the shame

JSM · Nov 11, 2017

It seems to me that Carolina is doing the best she can to put out solid programs. If the lutz isn't there yet, what is she going to do? Withdraw? Or just go out there and perform with the content she's confident with, and let the chips fall where they may?

I'm sure she's training the lutz. But she's a 30 year old woman, not a teenager. It takes time...

Baron Vladimir · Nov 11, 2017

Spirals for Miles said:
I know.
But the judges should send a clear message that to stay competitive, you must land more than 4 triples.

No, if you dont have skills to score high in PCS. You can win with different strategies, Alina strategy is backloading, Caro is PCS etc etc etc.. I think, we should appreciate (like judges do) every skater who is exceptional in any segment of FS programme. To be fair, Caro already proved herself as the best PCS lady by winning that segment in last Olympic, so... Its not like judges pulling those scores from nowhere...

Sam-Skwantch · Nov 11, 2017

bobbob said:
Anyways, I think if Caro goes clean with her current jump content, she can get a silver.

That’s the thing...no one disputes that really. It’s that she can probably do it being messy. It looks unfair. YMMV

Baron Vladimir · Nov 11, 2017

Sam-Skwantch said:
That’s the thing...no one disputes that really. It’s that she can probably do it being messy. It looks unfair. YMMV

Well, she was clean at last Olympic, and even she scores more than others in PCS, she didnt get even silver. So lets not jump to that conclusion easilly, im pretty sure judges know what they are doing.

schizoanalyst · Nov 11, 2017

Baron Vladimir said:
Well, she was clean at last Olympic, and even she scores more than others in PCS, she didnt get even silver. So lets not jump to that conclusion easilly, im pretty sure judges know what they are doing.

That's true. But also they are allowing her PCS differential to be monumental, this wasn't the case in Sochi. Would anyone be surprised by a 77/78 PCS at Oly for Caro? I wouldn't. They will never award anything close to that for Higuchi, Zagitova, Osmond - 73 at most for any of them and I might be *very* surprised at that (especially for anyone besides Zagitova). With Kostner's huge GOEs on steps/choreo+over-generous GOE on remaining elements it's possible that she could overcome tech deficiencies.

ask · Nov 12, 2017

Sam-Skwantch said:
1992 called....they want their logic back

Be Kind...Rewind

In all seriousness please...show me via actual numbers how you would score Caro 20pts higher than Polina here.

Polina would need something like 6’s or lower in each component while Caro would get straight 10’s? Is that how you see it?

Your second grade teacher called. They wondered how you passed. 20 points in both phases are like 6 in SP and 13 in LP.
Even 20 points in LP means actual PCS gap is 12.5. so 2 points per component. 9.5 vs. 7.5. Don´t be a smart ass.

Fruitpie · Nov 12, 2017

ask said:
Basic girls who think their PCS should be higher than 60 is ridiculous. Carolina honed her artistic for 15 years longer than the other girls.

Caro at the age of 15 already had her artistic mark higher than her tech. I fail to see your point.

Miller · Nov 12, 2017

Isn't the problem that Caro got PCS 75.71 for a skate that had a fall and a pop. 73.27 for a clean, intended, 6 triple program at COR might be fair enough, but 75.71?

moriel · Nov 12, 2017

Baron Vladimir said:
No, if you dont have skills to score high in PCS. You can win with different strategies, Alina strategy is backloading, Caro is PCS etc etc etc.. I think, we should appreciate (like judges do) every skater who is exceptional in any segment of FS programme. To be fair, Caro already proved herself as the best PCS lady by winning that segment in last Olympic, so... Its not like judges pulling those scores from nowhere...

Ummm just saying, I really don't see Alina getting a 137 score if she only managed 5 triples, backloading or no backloading.
As for PCs, I see many people disagreeing that she should receive such PCs. For example, I don't really see transitions in her programs, specially compared to other ladies currently skating. And so on.
Her GOEs also seem pretty debatable to me, mora than Alina's / Osmond's / Medvedeva's etc blabla

Baron Vladimir · Nov 12, 2017

schizoanalyst said:
That's true. But also they are allowing her PCS differential to be monumental, this wasn't the case in Sochi. Would anyone be surprised by a 77/78 PCS at Oly for Caro? I wouldn't. They will never award anything close to that for Higuchi, Zagitova, Osmond - 73 at most for any of them and I might be *very* surprised at that (especially for anyone besides Zagitova). With Kostner's huge GOEs on steps/choreo+over-generous GOE on remaining elements it's possible that she could overcome tech deficiencies.

Osmond already got near 73. I dont think Wakaba and Alina will score that high as they are still not that good in projecting/emoting/skating for the audience or skating their programmes as a whole. Also, by current rules, quality is still having (almost) equal role in FS programme as quantity.

Kostner's plan for the Lutz in 2018?

Purv

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Ender

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penguin

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Ender

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ask

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