2017_18 ISU Judging Anomalies | Golden Skate

2017_18 ISU Judging Anomalies

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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During the events we run into frequent issues of poor judging and often people criticize the skaters for scores they had nothing to do with. This thread is designed to call out specific judging and specific judges to which you feel are out of line and not scoring fairly or at least reasonably in a specific event.

Here is my first nomination:

Judge #6: Ms. Alison RYAN | (AUS)
Skate Canada Ladies SP
Protocol

Accused of:
Lowballing the field (except 1st place)

The Case:
Ms. Ryan actually scored Kaetlyn Osmond pretty fairly and accurately given today’s standards we see of most 1st place clean skates on the Grand Prix. What is weird is after Kaetlyn her marks drop drastically for everyone. Looking at the score sheet for 2nd and 3rd place after the SP we generally see her giving scores in the 7’s and 6’s and averaged ~1.5 to 2pts lower than what the other judges were giving and about two points in each component less than she awarded to 1st place. I think most people would agree with Kaetlyn’s numbers but should she be scored two to three points higher per component than Maria and Anna? I think this is unreasonable!

Supporting Data:
Take a look at 4th place Courtney Hicks and notice her highest mark is a 5.75 for SS and Ms. Ryan even gave her several 5.0’s in categories other judges were giving 7.5-8.5pts on. The final averaged and factored scores for Interpretation of Music,Performance and Composition scores from Ms. Ryan are ~2pts lower than the other judges were awarding.

Summary:
The bottom line is that if we were to use only Ms. Ryan’s score there would be about a 17-18pt deficit in PCS alone between Courtney Hicks and 1st place. Similar but slightly less drastic variations are noticeable between most judges and her on Anna Pogorilays scores but she really hammered Maria Sotskova in 3rd place who she didn’t award a single 7 in any component to.

Come on Ms. Ryan......you just made the list!! :furious:
 
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FSGMT

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Joined
Sep 10, 2012
Thank you for creating this! If we all handle this well (which means: if we can avoid turning this into a hate-everyone-who-underscores-your-favourites thread), it can be a chance to evaluate what the judges are doing: after all, they are a fundamental part of the competition, too!
In this specific case, I think Ms. Ryan's scores were not accurate and not reflecting what was performed on the ice, not just for the overall strictness in her marking (which could even be remotely acceptable, if consistent), but for the unjustified abyss that separates Kaetlyn's marks from the others'.

(I think @skatingprotocol's posts on Instagram can help a lot in this: he has done various marking analyses in the past: I'll go and check what I can find)
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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This thread is extremely necessary. I should have kept a running list of bad tech calls over the years to copy+paste. There are literally hundreds.

PCS gets even more complicated but one thing I will ALWAYS point out immediately is how Matt Savoie had by far the best transitions in the LP at 2006 Olympics and wasn't even in the top 5 in this component; every judge but 1 in fact scored Plushenko higher on transitions, when Plushenko had the emptiest transitions of all the top guys in the LP! There are countless ongoing examples of this in the PCS scoring to this day. Matt Savoie also had the best choreography and interpretation of anyone in that 2006 Olympic program, but I'll get into that later perhaps. I was actually planning to write a giant 2006 retrospective at some point.
 

Neenah16

On the Ice
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Dec 4, 2016
As long as it is objective criticism, this could be a great thread. I personally think the judges deserve more criticism than the poor skaters who happen to benefit from wacky scoring, and I like the format that Sam-Skwantch used to present the case against Ms. Alison Ryan, which pointed out what was right and wrong in her scoring and not just attacked her :agree:
 

gkelly

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Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Should we have a separate thread to call out especially good judging?

One thread for discussion of both?

Do we just assume most judging is at least in the ballpark of where it should be, so it's the bad exceptions that stand out as worth discussing?
 

GGFan

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Joined
Nov 9, 2013
Should we have a separate thread to call out especially good judging?

One thread for discussion of both?

Do we just assume most judging is at least in the ballpark of where it should be, so it's the bad exceptions that stand out as worth discussing?

I would love to see both good and bad examples. That is, if a judge has the courage to step out and judge according to the standards they should be highlighted.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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Should we have a separate thread to call out especially good judging?

One thread for discussion of both?

Do we just assume most judging is at least in the ballpark of where it should be, so it's the bad exceptions that stand out as worth discussing?

I assume nothing :dev2:

I think we can also create a judging hall of fame thread but I think it will be hard to note especially good judging but I'm all for it. Too bad its post JGP season because that's where we often see judges who award PCS marks with more deviation among the components. I think they would see many praises!

I'm not intending to discuss judging as a whole or change the system or anything like that in this thread but rather the bad judging which is an exception to the standards. I do believe most judging is within the ballpark of where it should be.
 

Icey

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Nov 28, 2012
I would be interested to know what her history is as a judge----what competitions etc. I was so alarmed at her judging I posted something that got me an infraction. Is she on the fs panel? If so it will interesting to see her judging in that event.
 

Andrea82

Medalist
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Feb 16, 2014
I would be interested to know what her history is as a judge----what competitions etc. I was so alarmed at her judging I posted something that got me an infraction. Is she on the fs panel? If so it will interesting to see her judging in that event.


yes, she will on the FS panel
She is also on Men panel at Skate Canada. She's judge 7.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/gpcan2017/gpcan2017_Men_SP_Scores.pdf

In PCS, she overscored compared to the panel average: Uno, Chan, Brown, Messing (she really liked him), Hendrickx, Cha.
She underscored: Samarin, Brezina, Mura, Kerry.



As for her previous appearances, I see she was one of the judges at Nebelhorn 2015 (Men and Pairs).
 

Violet Bliss

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Nov 19, 2010
I don't like shaming. I'm also weary of tyranny of all kinds, including that of majority, of strong opinions, of pressure groups, etc.

It is one thing to judge the judging, it's another to shame someone for taking a different stance which may be due to corruption, biases, or personal integrity. Their effect is already mitigated by their scores being thrown out, and their judging officially questioned with the out-of-corridor precept.

As we judge, we are subject to the same standard we require of the judges. Yet, as evident from the forum discussions and debates, we are of varied human tendencies, subject to all kinds of biases and standards. And these biases, e.g. nationalism, are habitually projected to others and assumed as premises in debates. How are we going to come to any consensus, especially since a decision to shame a person is a serious one? If not a matter of out-of-corridor scoring, which is easy to spot and question, is it going to be rehashes of arguments with different personal viewpoints as the ultimate standards, those different or opposing being wrong and those in agreement being correct and honorable?

People love to judge. So we judge skaters, coaches, federations, ISU, scoring, judging, and other fans. Now that judges are individuals with names, they become additional specific subjects. It seems the harshest judgments are fair game, with the Hall of Shame created just for them.

I say let's discuss and debate judging, as usual, but let's not be so judgmental as to shame real people.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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I don’t think we need to take the term Shame so seriously. It’s a play on the popular term “Hall of Fame” and that’s it. No need to assign a deeper meaning to it.

I think you might be misinterpreting my intentions and the spirit of the thread...as intended. The title is just meant to be funny haha ;)
 

Osmond4gold

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Jan 27, 2013
I don't like shaming. I'm also weary of tyranny of all kinds, including that of majority, of strong opinions, of pressure groups, etc.

It is one thing to judge the judging, it's another to shame someone for taking a different stance which may be due to corruption, biases, or personal integrity. Their effect is already mitigated by their scores being thrown out, and their judging officially questioned with the out-of-corridor precept.

As we judge, we are subject to the same standard we require of the judges. Yet, as evident from the forum discussions and debates, we are of varied human tendencies, subject to all kinds of biases and standards. And these biases, e.g. nationalism, are habitually projected to others and assumed as premises in debates. How are we going to come to any consensus, especially since a decision to shame a person is a serious one? If not a matter of out-of-corridor scoring, which is easy to spot and question, is it going to be rehashes of arguments with different personal viewpoints as the ultimate standards, those different or opposing being wrong and those in agreement being correct and honorable?

People love to judge. So we judge skaters, coaches, federations, ISU, scoring, judging, and other fans. Now that judges are individuals with names, they become additional specific subjects. It seems the harshest judgments are fair game, with the Hall of Shame created just for them.

I say let's discuss and debate judging, as usual, but let's not be so judgmental as to shame real people.

'THIS' is deserving of a STANDING O :clap: :clap: :clap: Thanks Violet Bliss, for being a voice of reason. It's okay to agree to disagree with how judges see things, but singling out people, imho is misguided. Hey, we were all glad when we could finally see the judges behind the numbers, let's not abuse the opportunity.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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'THIS' is deserving of a STANDING O :clap: :clap: :clap: Thanks Violet Bliss, for being a voice of reason. It's okay to agree to disagree with how judges see things, but singling out people, imho is misguided. Hey, we were all glad when we could finally see the judges behind the numbers, let's not abuse the opportunity.

Please guide me then...please address my first post and the details laid out. Don’t get personal and no need for lectures. This thread is about addressing questionable judging on a case by case basis. If you feel a poster is shaming a judge don’t reply to them and simply report their posts. I feel I was very respectful and used the numbers that the judge I was discussing put for their marks. I think we have every right to hold them accountable even if just for the sake of discussion.

If singling out people is misguided then you must really enjoy the “Insert Skater’s PCS” is way to high discussions with no details added.

Maybe I am mistaken but I think other people are interested in discussing the judges marks in a respectful and honest way. That is my intention and the way I plan on conducting myself in this thread and I’ll certainly encourage others to do the same.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Should we have a separate thread to call out especially good judging?

One thread for discussion of both?

Do we just assume most judging is at least in the ballpark of where it should be, so it's the bad exceptions that stand out as worth discussing?

It seems like extreme outliers would characterize bad judging. I'm not sure what metrics one would use to identify good judging.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
How do we define "Good Judging"? I think we need to know what the standard is or should be before we can identify who does or doesn't measure up.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Do we just assume most judging is at least in the ballpark of where it should be, so it's the bad exceptions that stand out as worth discussing?

I would love to see both good and bad examples. That is, if a judge has the courage to step out and judge according to the standards they should be highlighted.

I don't like shaming. I'm also weary of tyranny of all kinds, including that of majority, of strong opinions, of pressure groups, etc.

It is one thing to judge the judging, it's another to shame someone for taking a different stance which may be due to corruption, biases, or personal integrity. .

I think that these posts pinpoint the problem. "Bad judging" often means just scoring the skaters differently form the majority of the judging panel. But maybe that is actually "good judging."
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
... That said :) , the scores of Judge #6 that Sam-Skwanch pointed out, are quite striking. When it comes to program components she is hard to please. And the only skater who pleased her was Osmond.

Actually, I can sort of see that. Osmond gave a terrific performance and all the others were meh. The judge was unforgiving to Hicks and no friend of Wagner, in particular. She even gave slightly lower scores to Craine, compared to the average of the panel. It would be interesting to hear this judge's explanation of what criteria she is using when she gives out scores in the 5's and 6's for skating skills, etc. Any skater who is invited to a senior grand prix event is going to have a lot going for her, even if she gives a flawed performance.
 

dailytg20

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 18, 2015
I agree that a hallmark of "bad" judging are scores that consistently sit outside of the judging consensus. As an old fart, I miss when the viewing audience could react to this stuff in realtime.

"10..." applause "10..." cheers "10..." wild animal shrieks "9.6" BOOOOOOOOO

Even the score announcers would highlight a BS mark in their tone.

I am able to overlook an occasional stray mark because judging this sport is so absurdly difficult to do in the moment. Conversely I think a repeated pattern of stray marks may indicate that a judge could be taking advantage of this fact.

Edit: Given the scoring over the course of Skate Canada, you can definitely argue that the judge that spawned this discussion could fall under this category.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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How do we define "Good Judging"?

Analysis, both of the judge's scores in relation to other judges, and critically examining the skating itself and discussing what the scores should have looked like.
 
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