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Thread: Why records with spiral are still counted?

  1. #1
    Rinkside
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    Why records with spiral are still counted?

    hello!!!

    i just was checking the records and noticed this:
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/ow..._SP_Scores.pdf
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/ow..._FS_Scores.pdf

    very big GOE and spiral. if these skaters were skating by current rules - how many points they will get? -10, -15, -20?

    and if osmond or medvedeva will skate by previous rules - how much their scores will be? 90-95 for the short program and 170-180 for the free skate?

    i mean it's not fair that previous skaters with very weak layout were getting these crazy scores.

    even medvedeva and osmond's inflation it's not so crazy as previous scores.

    why they are still counted? thanks in advance!

  2. #2
    Bona Fide Member gravy's Avatar
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    Good question! World records are not recognized by the ISU for this very reason. They are simply something fans made up to feel good about their favorites.

    Even today, elements required for the short in pairs and dance differ from season to season which is why the ISU only recognizes season bests scores. Sometimes the maximum TES is higher like last year with the midnight blues in the short dance which is why you saw so many personal bests. Sometimes the TES is lower like in pairs this season where one of the required elements is a group 3 lift (4.50 points) as opposed to last season where you needed to a group 5 lift (7.50 points).

    Personally, I don't think that the ISU should recognize personal best scores either since it's pointless when elements in the short change from season to season in some disciplines as well as the value of certain elements. The judging of GOEs have also changed since those Vancouver protocols you posted. Notice that Yuna got +2.00 points in her 3Lz+3T for pretty much +2 GOEs from each judge. Nowadays, the average of those judges' GOEs would be multiplied by a factor to get her score; in this case she would get +1.40 points for that combination in today's rules and then you also have to recognize that the BV of that combo is now worth 10.30 points. So many things to consider!

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    The all thing around tracking records is pointless: more marketing than anything else. ISU is always changing the rules, the value of each jump,...

    It makes sense when you are comparing skaters between the same era, but between different cycles no.

    How many points would get those skaters today? all the skaters change their programs based on the rules.

    I'd say that some of these skaters today wouldn't be as successful. For example Yuna Kim won her major competitions with only 6 triples on her FS, in today's figure skating 7 triples is the standard and clean programs aren't rare, so her issues on the 3lo would hurt her more.

    Definitely Joannie Roachette without a 3-3 wouldn't go anywhere today.

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    Medalist Ares's Avatar
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    There is no such a thing as official record like WR according to ISU - only the best scores recorded, it makes sense considering many changes in the system throughout the years.
    But it's basically just SB that has some weight as there are no changes in rules, requirements or base values in the same season.


    As for Medvedeva and her LP alone, she would not score much more as Spiral Sequence as an element was replaced by another technical element (Choreo Sequence) but with no seperate levels to it. Spiral sequence in the best scenario was worthy little above 5 points so no way any lady would score 170-180 with it. In the past SP indeed had one element more so it would make a difference.

  5. #5
    On the Ice Mathman's Avatar
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    Welcome, ReasonOFF, and thanks for the interesting topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ares View Post
    There is no such a thing as official record like WR according to ISU - only the best scores recorded, it makes sense considering many changes in the system throughout the years.
    But it's basically just SB that has some weight as there are no changes in rules, requirements or base values in the same season.


    As for Medvedeva and her LP alone, she would not score much more as Spiral Sequence as an element was replaced by another technical element (Choreo Sequence) but with no seperate levels to it. Spiral sequence in the best scenario was worthy little above 5 points so no way any lady would score 170-180 with it. In the past SP indeed had one element more so it would make a difference.
    The GOE factoring thing would impact quite a bit, actually, so yeah some higher scores for sure.
    I see how that could have gotten her a +5/+10 easily.

    On the other hand, im not sure if there was the 2nd half bonus so...

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    PCS scoring has changed quite a bit, too. At 2005 Worlds in the LP, Michelle scored 59.36 in PCS and that was the 3rd highest score of the night. At last week's Skate Canada, this would have placed her 8th out of 12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    PCS scoring has changed quite a bit, too. At 2005 Worlds in the LP, Michelle scored 59.36 in PCS and that was the 3rd highest score of the night. At last week's Skate Canada, this would have placed her 8th out of 12.
    No, we cant say that for sure. PCS is generally changing acording to changes in TES (and base values and GOEs), because its meant that 2 marks gave around 50 % of the total score. Her TES was 56 back then, and other skaters could score max 70 TES... so max for PCS was set to 70 points... With same skate her PCS will be higher for sure today. Because today TES could go near 80, so max PCS is now set to be near 80. I think, all top ladies from that WC will score higher today...

  9. #9
    Rinkside
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    thanks for the answers! very interesting

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    Quote Originally Posted by moriel View Post
    The GOE factoring thing would impact quite a bit, actually, so yeah some higher scores for sure.
    I see how that could have gotten her a +5/+10 easily.
    The fact that there was a spiral sequence would only affect the base value of that one element in the freeskate. There GOE difference on spiral sequence vs. choreo sequence would be tenths of points at best. It should make no difference at all to the GOEs on other elements.

    In the short program, having 8 elements instead of 7 would make a difference in the total element score.

    Same for men having two step sequences instead of one (SP) or instead of one plus choreo seq (FS).

    On the other hand, im not sure if there was the 2nd half bonus so...
    The 2nd half bonus has been around since the beginning of IJS in the freeskate.

    In the short program it's only been around for about 4 years or so. I forget when exactly it was introduced, but definitely after 2010.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moriel View Post
    The GOE factoring thing would impact quite a bit, actually, so yeah some higher scores for sure.
    I see how that could have gotten her a +5/+10 easily.

    On the other hand, im not sure if there was the 2nd half bonus so...
    There was a bonus in the long program but not in the short in the original IJS.

  12. #12
    Rinkside
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolstoj View Post

    Definitely Joannie Roachette without a 3-3 wouldn't go anywhere today.
    But for some reason Carolina Kostner does. 🤔 Smh! At least Joannie could do a triple lutz! 🤣

  13. #13
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReasonOFF View Post
    even medvedeva and osmond's inflation it's not so crazy as previous scores.

  14. #14
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    I do miss the spiral sequence and wish they brought back the choreographic spiral. There are some skaters like Zagitova, Chen, Nagasu, and many others who I imagine would excel at it and make their programs have one more wow moment.

    Well, judges have become more lenient when it has come to awarding +2 and +3 GOEs in this quadrennial, so I would say that the technical mark would pretty much be the same for the top skaters like Yuna. We even have Yuna's skate from 2013 Worlds to compare, where she got numerous +2s on her jumps, so a 75-77 TES isn't beyond her reach.

    The PCS has gone up steadily as well, so the PCS for the top skaters then would go up about 3-5 points just in general. Medvedeva would still be at the top or very close to it, as well as Kostner and Osmond if they're clean.

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